Has Modelling Taken over ?

MentalSharps · December 2018

accidental triple post -- see below!

MentalSharps · December 2018

John_A said:

MentalSharps said:

John_A said:

Gadget said:

I like the hybrid idea.

Keep the valve amps, but feed them into a load / IR box like the Torpedo, Ox, etc.

Better tones than I've had with modellers and a get to keep tasty warm with my lovely valve amps

I’m sure it sounds lovely, but when you have 20 minutes to set up in the dog and duck, it’s not all about tone

I'm curious (never gigged), why would it be difficult to set up live?

Isn't it just an XLR from Loadbox into the PA and Bob's your uncle?

That’s pretty much it

Why are reactive loadboxes not a good solution then?

Again, I have no gigging experience so I'm genuinely curious -- but it seems they would offer the best all-around compromises - great tone with tubes being pushed, but with the exact same ease of setup as digital options?

Fez · December 2018

I don't think modelling has taken over yet but it is on the rise. The guy in the band we played with last night ran a helix into his valve amp, it sounded great but I did kind of wonder at the point putting all that circuitry and programming in front of a great sounding Fender valve amp. Valve amps were supposed to die out in the early 80's but here we are still using them.

EricTheWeary · December 2018

My pub bands have been usually a drum kit+backline +PA primarily for vocals so modelling would have meant modeller+ FRFR amp set up or buying a bigger PA. So, not less stuff to load and unload just different stuff.

Maybe it’s genre specific and to be fair I don’t go to all that many gigs these days but a modelling only set up is definitely in the minority of what I’ve seen. As always the ears of the person doing it seem more important than the gear.

Voxman · December 2018

I was brought up with all valve amps, as that was all there was. Like a lot of (particularly older) folk here I've owned loads of what are now classic amps and played through loads more. In the days of pure backline you needed an amp that was loud and clear enough to cut through the mix, and the solid state amps of the day in the early 70s generally didn't cut it.

But they were big, heavy, had to be played at gig volume to sound good, were often fiddly to find the right sweet spot, and required new valves, caps and whatever else. They were generally great at their one or two trademark sounds but typically you couldn't get a Fender to sound like a Marshall or Vox (aside that a Bassman and JTM45 had a similar design).

We tend to look back all misty eyed but a lot of these stock non boutique amps were probably fairly average sounding and could vary in tone hugely from even the same series. In the day I don't think I ever played two AC30s that were the same.

With modelling and ever better and cost friendly PA systens came versatility, lighter weight, minimal or no maintenance, and lower cost. And as modelling developed the differences in tone and feel shrank dramatically. Modern PAs meant you didnt need a loud backline and a 15w amp or mfx unit could be miked up and sound huge.

Sure, if you're in a pro band and gig regularly, a top quality valve amp can really sing. But for the majority of amateur and home players on a budget with limited space, modelling wins hands down. Most ordinary valve amps that can be bought for hundreds rather than thousands are ok but generally nothing really special Nowadays I don't even use an amp, I just put my old Vox Tonelab SE or LE straight through the board. It sounds and feels close enough to a tube amp that makes no difference to anyone other than a valve amp purist. I don't break my back carrying it, it doesn't take up a lot if space, I can switch between different amp models and fx really easily, and I don't even need a separate tuner.

I have three valve amps that hardly get played now, and even my Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX stays at home now and is my go to home amp.

So I'm very happy with modelling and I can't envisage ever buying another valve amp.

rico · December 2018

I’ve yet to come across anything that sounds like a big valve amp cranked. The venues we play positively encourage it!

Dominic · December 2018

Interestingly I spent yesterday having a guitar afternoon........playing a Kemper alongside 3 very good valve amps. The first thing I played was the Kemper ....all set up via an amp switcher......
The Kemper sounded brilliant.........and then I switched over to the valve amps........and back and forth.
There is no doubt that in isolation the valve amps sound better .....it's very noticeable when they are side by side - would you notice if a Bassist ,drummer and keys player were joining in the fun.?............absolutely not.
How do you define the difference.?......to me it's always emphasised by any degree of reverb or delay....there is a "hard to define" harshness.....abruptness to notes in the way they decay emphasised by reverb whereas the valve amps have a slightly softer attenuation and sustain.
It may well be possible for good tweakers or more skilled users to dial this out,I don't know, but I have never been able to do this on Helix or Kemper.
Obviously convenience and variety of modelling wins every time ......it sounds great but it doesn't sound SAME.

John_A · December 2018

Dominic said:

Interestingly I spent yesterday having a guitar afternoon........playing a Kemper alongside 3 very good valve amps. The first thing I played was the Kemper ....all set up via an amp switcher......
The Kemper sounded brilliant.........and then I switched over to the valve amps........and back and forth.
There is no doubt that in isolation the valve amps sound better .....it's very noticeable when they are side by side - would you notice if a Bassist ,drummer and keys player were joining in the fun.?............absolutely not.
How do you define the difference.?......to me it's always emphasised by any degree of reverb or delay....there is a "hard to define" harshness.....abruptness to notes in the way they decay emphasised by reverb whereas the valve amps have a slightly softer attenuation and sustain.
It may well be possible for good tweakers or more skilled users to dial this out,I don't know, but I have never been able to do this on Helix or Kemper.
Obviously convenience and variety of modelling wins every time ......it sounds great but it doesn't sound SAME.

But once the amp is mic’d and put through the PA, the difference to the audience is reduced to nothing.

darcym · December 2018

I really enjoy these threads because it's useful to see how others are getting on.
I have a kemper that I use for studio work only, I find it an exceptional tool, it makes adding those little touches to recordings really easy and opens options, it makes demo's at home quick and easy to just get an idea down with context. The main questions/problems are as follows, and they are mostly followed around live use.

does the audience notice the difference - for the majority, I don't think so, but it does depend on the music and the quality of the profile,
Can I tell the difference - for the majority sound wise, no, but again depends on the type of music and the profile quality
The limitation of the actual tone profile concept - (certainly with kemper) if you think of a profile as a "recording" of an amp that your guitar signal is passed through, you're limited to that base sound on the amp, changing say the bass on the profile is a very different approach and sound than changing the bass on the amp, it just doesn't sound the same, I find to have different EQ that feels right you have to have multiple profiles
Interacting with pedals - again this may be most specific to kemper, but I've found it true on the Axe FX II too, if you have a good clean sound (hard to get in general) the sound of putting pedals in front of it, just isn't right compared to putting the pedal in front of the real amp, this becomes less obvious with higher gain profiles, but with clean, it just doesn't work, which I assume is why people profile amps with effects included, eg: I have an amp profile that is clean, re-profiled with a klon in front of it, and then re-profiled with a tubescreamer in front of it (I didn't do it) but those profiles sound way better than the original clean profile with a a real klon or tube screamer infront of it, this is a real problem for me as a concept and limits the use of FX as you end up profiling for every combination.
different pickups - as above really, different guitars don't really shine through any more like they do on amps, I have my main amp profiled by a professional, and I can swap between multiple strats and they all sound the same through it, where as I swap between the same strats on my amp and they all sound different (yes, all strat voiced, but there are clear differences) and the difference between a strat and a 335 for example is clear on the kemper, but the amp is massively different.
This is the killer, the feel, I cannot explain this and I think it's limited to my skillset as a player, but live, I just can't play with the kemper, I just suck, I fumble, I'm rigid, I'm personally uncomfortable, I'm ashamed of my playing. Stick the real amp behind me, and I'm a different player, I know there are other guys who do this with ease, I play with someone I know who has a kemper who by his own admission doesn't rate himself as good as me, yet clearly he is because he picks up a kemper, and is straight at home playing like it's the most natural thing on the planet. It's something about the feel and response from the real amp, I just don't get it from the kemper and as such just struggle.

The kemper is a fantastic tool for me, one of the best purchases I've made but it's a tool with a specific use case, not a replacement for me, and ICBM's warning of the end of valve amps approaching and valves not being made, scares me as I've not found anything digital that comes close to fixing the above.

p90fool · December 2018

@darcym your experience is exactly the same as mine.

I've used software and hardware modellers for years in the studio and it works perfectly, but live I need an incredibly versatile and responsive SINGLE sound which I can control from my guitar.

I often think that players who don't use amps the way I do realise just how far away even the best modellers are from achieving it.

If I used a preloaded patch for every nuance I want I'd need to be a tap dancer, but I just want to run around, dance with the singers and play music.

randella · December 2018

My setup is a valve amp and likely to stay that way for a while. I have a lunchbox head, a 1x12 cab, modest pedalboard, I take a couple of guitars and a bag of leads. Three light or two heavy trips from the car. As we haven't yet switched to a full in-ear monitoring setup in my band, I'd have to use some sort of powered cab with a modeller and therefore would have just as much stuff to carry.

The notion of having a million different amps in a box is tempting but in a pub covers band, how many of those are you going to use? My Mesa has a Fender-ish broken-up clean, a Marshall-ish drive, and I use an overdrive to sweeten them both if I need. I can manage a fairly diverse set with this, from funk to hard rock, and without blowing my trumpet I do get compliments (usually from other guitarists in the crowd) on how good my sound is from time to time so I figure I'm not just 'making do'. I like my sound, I've worked on it for a long time and it suits the band.

If I changed the amp 'type' for every song therefore necessitating a tweak with the mix, our bassist who also does the desk would go justifiably mad at me.

For home, I'd have a Helix or AxeFx in a heartbeat, and if the band used all in-ear monitoring obviously it'd be a no-brainer. Sooner or later I'll switch but I don't see how much I'd *really* gain right now for at least £1,300 outlay.

digitalscream · December 2018

randella said:

If I changed the amp 'type' for every song therefore necessitating a tweak with the mix, our bassist who also does the desk would go justifiably mad at me.

That's an odd argument I see quite a bit - it's highly unusual for anybody using a modeller to do that at all. The most common use case for those who use modellers is actually along the lines of this principle:

Clean: Fender Twin
Crunchy drive: Marshall Plexi
Heavy drive: Friedman HBE
Lead: Soldano SLO

Effectively, a different amp for each "channel".

guitarfishbay · December 2018

digitalscream said:

randella said:

If I changed the amp 'type' for every song therefore necessitating a tweak with the mix, our bassist who also does the desk would go justifiably mad at me.

That's an odd argument I see quite a bit - it's highly unusual for anybody using a modeller to do that at all. The most common use case for those who use modellers is actually along the lines of this principle:

Clean: Fender Twin
Crunchy drive: Marshall Plexi
Heavy drive: Friedman HBE
Lead: Soldano SLO

Effectively, a different amp for each "channel".

Which isn't that different to having a 4 channel amp. If you're going direct then the easiest way to keep things more consistent is to use the same IR each time. If you're going through a real cabinet then it's not really much different to using a multi channel amp, providing you set up the tones to all work together.

Roland · December 2018

Except that you can define much more closely what each of those four channels sounds like

simonk · December 2018

digitalscream said:

randella said:

If I changed the amp 'type' for every song therefore necessitating a tweak with the mix, our bassist who also does the desk would go justifiably mad at me.

That's an odd argument I see quite a bit - it's highly unusual for anybody using a modeller to do that at all. The most common use case for those who use modellers is actually along the lines of this principle:

Clean: Fender Twin
Crunchy drive: Marshall Plexi
Heavy drive: Friedman HBE
Lead: Soldano SLO

Effectively, a different amp for each "channel".

And you don’t even have to do that... I get everything I need from one amp model - a jumped Plexi. That’s all I use... just because it’s in there doesn’t mean you have to use it all.

Fiftyshadesofjay · December 2018

digitalscream said:

randella said:

If I changed the amp 'type' for every song therefore necessitating a tweak with the mix, our bassist who also does the desk would go justifiably mad at me.

That's an odd argument I see quite a bit - it's highly unusual for anybody using a modeller to do that at all. The most common use case for those who use modellers is actually along the lines of this principle:

Clean: Fender Twin
Crunchy drive: Marshall Plexi
Heavy drive: Friedman HBE
Lead: Soldano SLO

Effectively, a different amp for each "channel".

+1

Also worth noting it's good practice to use the same IR or similar profiles (e.g. M Britt) for all except the clean channel)

The big bonus with digital for me is using these core tones but being able to tailor specific effects for each song.

Twinfan · December 2018

p90fool said:

I've used software and hardware modellers for years in the studio and it works perfectly, but live I need an incredibly versatile and responsive SINGLE sound which I can control from my guitar.

I often think that players who don't use amps the way I do realise just how far away even the best modellers are from achieving it.

If I used a preloaded patch for every nuance I want I'd need to be a tap dancer, but I just want to run around, dance with the singers and play music.

Exactly the same for me. I only need one amp that can interact with the way I play my guitar and modellers don't feel right to me, they just don't have the response.

This is quite a timely thread as I saw Mark Tremonti play at the weekend. Both support bands used Axe-FX for all guitars, each had two guitarists and a bassist. Mark's band had Kempers for bass and the second guitarist, Mark himself used two 4x12s, a PRS Archon and a Mesa Rectifier.

I know he was the headliner but Mark sounded by FAR the best. His amps all responded to the different guitars, volume roll offs etc much much better than any of the modellers did. Everyone else sounded flat and 2D, there was a noticeable extra 3D-ness to his tones.

Based on that gig, and my own experience, I'd say modellers haven't taken over yet. Far from it.

randella · December 2018

digitalscream said:

randella said:

If I changed the amp 'type' for every song therefore necessitating a tweak with the mix, our bassist who also does the desk would go justifiably mad at me.

That's an odd argument I see quite a bit - it's highly unusual for anybody using a modeller to do that at all. The most common use case for those who use modellers is actually along the lines of this principle:

Clean: Fender Twin
Crunchy drive: Marshall Plexi
Heavy drive: Friedman HBE
Lead: Soldano SLO

Effectively, a different amp for each "channel".

I don’t think it’s that odd. I already know which amps I like the sound of, and with a drive plus twin-channel amp, I’m not far off having a 4-way variety.

The thread questions whether or not modelling is taking over - I was just pondering why we don’t see as many on the pub band scene. It certainly wasn’t a criticism!

I’m not against modelling, I’d love a decent one and will succumb one day. The appeal for me would be to combine my three foot switches into one ‘tap’ (amp channel, eq boost, drive) and add some effects on each (delay on lead, maybe a touch of phaser or chorus on clean). The choice of amps is gravy, and far from the primary appeal.

I have a rack with an ADA MP-1 and some effects, midi’d to a footswitch - it effectively does this but it’s more weight, it’s noisy as hell, and you have to like the ADA drives (which I happen to). It’s far from ideal.

I’m pretty sure modelling will take over, but I think it’ll be gradual - old duffers like me who took two gigs to get used to having their SD-1 moved to the other side of the pedalboard might take a little while yet.

NelsonP · December 2018

digitalscream said:

randella said:

If I changed the amp 'type' for every song therefore necessitating a tweak with the mix, our bassist who also does the desk would go justifiably mad at me.

That's an odd argument I see quite a bit - it's highly unusual for anybody using a modeller to do that at all. The most common use case for those who use modellers is actually along the lines of this principle:

Clean: Fender Twin
Crunchy drive: Marshall Plexi
Heavy drive: Friedman HBE
Lead: Soldano SLO

Effectively, a different amp for each "channel".

This is me.

I have 5 presets available, so I use:
Clean: Deluxe (also have a Twin preset which I use sometimes too)
Crunch 1: AC30
Crunch 2: Plexi
Heavy Drive: Frienman HBE
Lead: Friedman HBE with boost

I match the levels on all of the patches so that they all cut through at the same level.
I use matched cabs on the clean presets and an ownhammer Basketweave GNR 4 x 12 on the Plexi and Friedmans

digitalscream · December 2018

randella said:

digitalscream said:

randella said:

If I changed the amp 'type' for every song therefore necessitating a tweak with the mix, our bassist who also does the desk would go justifiably mad at me.

That's an odd argument I see quite a bit - it's highly unusual for anybody using a modeller to do that at all. The most common use case for those who use modellers is actually along the lines of this principle:

Clean: Fender Twin
Crunchy drive: Marshall Plexi
Heavy drive: Friedman HBE
Lead: Soldano SLO

Effectively, a different amp for each "channel".

I don’t think it’s that odd. I already know which amps I like the sound of, and with a drive plus twin-channel amp, I’m not far off having a 4-way variety.

I think you've pretty much proven my point - I was saying that having a different amp type for every song isn't actually a reasonable (or common) use case, even though it's cited as the reason for modellers (usually by people who don't use them, I have to say).

What I'm saying is that most folk who use modellers don't do that. They effectively construct a rig which is a mashup of a few different amps - clean channel from one, drive channel from another etc.

And, as noted before, even were that the case...it's only changing the cab sim which would really cause issues at the desk.

I actually used to have an ADA MP-1, and really what I'm doing with the Helix is trying to make it do what my old MP-1 did...except more reliably, and without the fear that it's going to give up on me at a gig (as with any 30-year-old bit of kit for which spares aren't available any more). I now have a Soldano X88R preamp clone, which I'll probably use in one of my bands, and I'll use the Helix modelling in the other band (if it gets off the ground).

However, I'll still end up using the Helix in both cases...just effects in one, and full modelling in the other.

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Has Modelling Taken over ?

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