Early Metallica Sound

andyp

Hi folks.

I'm dabbling with learning some of the older Metallica stuff (specifically Seek and Destroy and For Whom the Bell Tolls) just now but I'm finding it pretty tough to get the sound I am looking for.

I'm using an SG Faded, Orange Rocker 15, a Rat and a Tumnus - that's what I'm trying to get the sound with anyway.

What I'm doing just now is using the clean channel on the amp (the clean channel has no EQ) and using the Rat to dial in the closest sound I can get, but it's not quite right. I've tried using the dirty channel and it sounds noticeably different, but still not right and I sort of want to leave that alone as I like the settings it's on for everything else I play. If I add the Tumnus into the Rat, it sounds pretty good but gets a bit too gainy and again isn't quite there. If I forgo the pedals and just use the dirty channel on the amp it gets dark quickly with the gain above about 2 o clock, which sounds good, but way too dark for this and I can't EQ it out... so there's not enough distortion without it going too dark. If I could get rid of it being so dark I think I could get there, but no amount of EQ'ing seems to stop the dark sound if the gain is up at that level.

I should also add, the amp is on the 1W setting as I'm playing at home and learning, 0.5W is darker (as you'd expect)... would it help if I went up to the 7W or even 15W setting? I don't think it would, it would just be louder in my mind... Has anyone got any advice on how to set this sound up? Even a simple "less mids, more bass" or something would help to be honest. The Rat sounds great but I struggle with getting nice settings on it, the filter control just doesn't quite do what I think it will do when I adjust it. If I use the Tumnus with no Rat I kind of run into the same dark amp sound... but maybe there's some mileage there in using the Tumnus and upping the treble on it.

At home I have a Charvel San Dimas and a Marshall DSL5 (I work away so the SG is at work, the Charvel is at home) so I am going to experiment with those this weekend if I can. Maybe I'm just using the wrong guitar and amp or the wrong pedals, but in my mind I should be able to get the sound I want from the kit I have. Right?

Sorry for the long ramble, but apart from learning the songs I find setting up a sound very tough to get right. Any advice would be great.

Cheers.

Andy

DeeTee

Ah, this was what got me into guitar: playing early Metallica. You're right that you'd probably hear a little more brightness if you went up to 7w or 15w, but obviously your neighbours might not be too happy! 

I'd suggest starting somewhere like here: https://shredaddict.com/metallica-amp-settings/ You'll then need to adjust to your taste. You'll probably find you get closer with the Marshall, but the Orange should do a good job too!

You'll note that the treble is a little higher than the bass, and the mids are completely scooped out. Gain is also not quite racked all the way up. I used to find that I got a "tighter" sound if I used a decent distortion pedal into the clean channel, which worked better for riffs, but this might also have been down to have an amp that was... not the best. 

andyp

@DeeTee This is brilliant help, thanks a lot! I’ll have a read and give that a go then have a play about to see what works.

Cheers!

viz

The Rat gives quite a nice organic sound. You could try something nastier like a metalzone and scoop it. I think going into the clean channel is the right choice; the dirt channel is normally a bit softer, not as harsh, as the clean+pedal option. And you want harsh, staccato, aggressive. 

andyp

viz said:

The Rat gives quite a nice organic sound. You could try something nastier like a metalzone and scoop it. I think going into the clean channel is the right choice; the dirt channel is normally a bit softer, not as harsh, as the clean+pedal option. And you want harsh, staccato, aggressive. 

Thanks, I agree. The clean plus pedal option does seem to work better and I like Rat. I’ll keep experimenting.

DeeTee

Personally, I hated the Metalzone. I'm not the only one, but it also has some passionate proponents. I had good results with the distortion part of the Boss Dual Overdrive. 

CarpeDiem

If you can't get the sound that you want from your Rat or Tumnus pedals, it may be worth trying a Mesa Boogie Throttle Box EQ, or a Boss Metal Zone as @viz suggested. Both of these pedals have adjustable EQ.

tone1

I’m not being flippant but for £80 or so, it might be worth trying a unit like a Boss GT6/8 and working out what models get you closest to that sound. 

andyp

I hadn’t thought of something like the Boss GTs. I might have a look into those!

An EQ pedal might be handy too.

DLM

You might get more help if you move this thread out of technique into FX or Amps. This is a bit of a backwater. 

andyp

DLM said:

You might get more help if you move this thread out of technique into FX or Amps. This is a bit of a backwater. 

Thanks, I really wasn't sure where to put this type of topic and I felt it was a bit of a daft query so I was a bit unsure about asking in front of a larger audience. I will move it over and see what happens, or try to move it at least.

I had some mild success at the weekend using the Charvel and Marshall, although I didn't get much time. I don't have any pedals with the DSL5 so I just used the gain channel and the EQ settings, which seemed much simpler than the pedals and Orange setup. Dialling back the mids did seem to make the difference I was looking for, a bit more tweaking and I'll be close enough for my level of playing. I'll be back on the SG and Orange tonight so will spend some more time working on it with those.

I'm not quite sure what prompted me to look at Seek and Destroy, but I've always liked the song from back at school age and I'm really enjoying learning it so far. It seems at around the right level for where I'm at just now as it's hard enough to be a challenge but not too far that I can't see progress, so it feels like I can make a decent go of the whole song minus the fast solo...

skunkwerx

I can't help so much with the pedal thing, but I get good (to my ear) results at home using an emg loaded guitar straight into my Katana 50 at 0.5w. 

Turn the gain up, scoop the mids, treble and bass up a bit. 

I'm deffo not a tone chaser though. 

The Ehx pocket muff is a high gain distortion, and I reckon on a clean channel that would also work. Its very simple, only has a level, gain and a 3 way switch which either doesnt cut the mids, does cut the mids, then really cuts the mids. 

DeeTee

andyp said:

I'm not quite sure what prompted me to look at Seek and Destroy, but I've always liked the song from back at school age and I'm really enjoying learning it so far. It seems at around the right level for where I'm at just now as it's hard enough to be a challenge but not too far that I can't see progress, so it feels like I can make a decent go of the whole song minus the fast solo...

I know exactly what prompted it. That immense riff right at the start of the song! So much fun to play.

andyp

@DeeTee I think you’re probably right!

I’m definitely not tone chasing here either really, that seems a long road that I don’t fancy going down! I’m very much a leaner so I’m just after something in the ballpark and couldn’t figure out what I was doing wrong. This is all a great help though, thanks!

DLM

Nothing daft about this query, it's a very common one in fact. Metallica were so influential, loads of people want to sound like them, especially this era of the band!

Totally understand what prompted looking at Seek and Destroy: I think it's the song they've played live most, second only to Master of Puppets.

And For Whom the Bell Tolls was my favorite song for ages, I did it to death in bands in my teenage years.

It should be a fairly managable tempo. The reception this song got influenced the band to move away from the speed metal thing somewhat, in fact.

Now that you've moved the thread, I'm gonna suggest something that would have belonged where you moved it from... d'oh! Downpicking! This is essential in getting most Metallica riffs to sound right, including the ones in these songs. You've got to make those palm-muted "chug" notes tight and consistent. There's probably threads on here about that, and you'll find plenty of YouTube tutorials, good and bad...

But I do have a gear suggestion, too: Some sort of EQ pedal. That will help you shape the sound you're getting on either rig you have, both of which sound fine for this purpose to me, by the way. You could also use it to push the valves in your amps harder, making you less reliant on the dirt pedals for your distortion.

\m/

andyp

Brilliant post @DLM , thanks!

I’m working on the picking but the muting is a bit tough. It seems simple, but I’m not finding it that easy. Playing with the gain up a bit is bringing issues I’ve not really encountered before, which is good ad it’s makimg me work on stuff.

I’m getting on ok tonight with the Orange and SG. I’ve opted to try using just the amp tonight and I’m getting an ok sound by taking the mids out and keeping the gain below about 2 o’clock. Higher than that and it goes too dark.

skunkwerx

Seek and destroy is good fun, so is for whom the bell tolls. 

Both are easily achievable, because if I can play them (except the solo on s+d), you deffo can! 

if you're learning, then 100% learn master of puppets. 

Certain riffs in that act as great warm ups and practice, plus its actually quite easy to play, don't worry about playing it full speed, there are slowed down backing tracks on youtube! 

Creeping death is also easy and simple to learn and play, again its the speed that will take the longest to get. 

If you want to add solo's, try Sanitarium. Again the song itself is nice and easy, and the first 2 solo's are fun, not too fast and easily achievable, the third one is trickier because it gets faster.

+ There are various lessons on youtube for most Tallica tracks, those included! 

andyp

I’ve actually been chipping away at Master of Puppets for a wee while (although I’ve not looked at it for a couple of months now) and have also been learning Sanitarium recently. All are great tracks and I’m loving learning them.

I’m a while away from really cracking them. Some bits are fine, some I’m miles away... but I’m enjoying the learning. 

DLM

andyp said: but I’m enjoying the learning. 

That's the main thing, and it's awesome!

All levels of gain are good for something when it comes to practice: use way too much and you have to learn to mute properly to avoid feedback, use as little as possible and still try to sound convincing, play unplugged and see if the distortion is masking anything, get notes that are meant to be the same volume consistent at any gain level, etc...

For any sort of picking practice I have found swapping plectrums around has helped a lot. Eventually you'll find one that works best for you, but also that you don't always have to have one of those to hand, and can make all sorts of things work. Similarly, vary the part of the edge of your hand you use when palm muting and you'll settle on something that works to get the familiar sounds.  

@skunkwerx is right on the money: the album tempo is just an ultimate goal (and the band would often end up going much faster live, so that can be done too if you want). Most of the stuff from this era will still sound fine and recognisable when played slower. In the case of the solos, there's a whole bag of classic pentatonic and blues licks that you'll then be able to play over all sorts of other tunes that will sound great much slower than as played by Hammett!

andyp

This is fantastic help, thanks so much!

Andy

DLM

For this kind of playing, I'd recommend trying the YouTube channel of Ben Eller, and his "This Is Why You Suck At Guitar" video series. His manner of presentation might be a bit marmite, but his explanations are very clear and thorough.