Help me make my love rock sound good !

riffpowers

I’ve got a really nice Japanese love rock that I don’t think I’m getting the best out of .

its had a pickup swap as I thought the stock pickups sounded a bit dull, but it still sounds a bit dull.

also , looks like the pickup switch is iffy as sometimes it doesn’t work, and sometimes the guitar cuts out or goes quiet while I’m playing . Also the pots don’t have a smooth taper , they seem to be on or off with not much in between.

its currently got a dimarzio paf and super distortion in it . It’s got p,ent6bif drive , but it still seems dull and doesn’t seem that lively or dynamic and it doesn’t have the punch and sizzle of a decent les Paul  compared to my other one. the guitar itself has plenty of ring unplugged , it’s just when it’s plugged in .

any ideas ? I was thinking wiring maybe ? Would it make that much difference ? Also , would a jb/jazz set suit it better ?

stickyfiddle

Wiring will absolutely make a difference if it's currently shitty. Are the pots full sized or the mini things you often see in Japanese guitars?

I'd go a full set of decent CTS ones, and possibly try 50s wiring if you haven't before. 

ICBM

Sell it and buy a Gibson Les Paul Studio.

You've just found what I have with every supposed ‘Gibson killer’ copy I’ve ever played - they just don’t sound as good as a good Gibson.

Of course the next problem is finding a good Gibson . Although to be fair, they’re more common than often thought...

stickyfiddle

ICBM said:

Sell it and buy a Gibson Les Paul Studio.

You've just found what I have with every supposed ‘Gibson killer’ copy I’ve ever played - they just don’t sound as good as a good Gibson.

Of course the next problem is finding a good Gibson . Although to be fair, they’re more common than often thought...

That would be my plan B. 

riffpowers

ICBM said:

Sell it and buy a Gibson Les Paul Studio.

You've just found what I have with every supposed ‘Gibson killer’ copy I’ve ever played - they just don’t sound as good as a good Gibson.

Of course the next problem is finding a good Gibson . Although to be fair, they’re more common than often thought...

I’ve currently got a buyer who’s interested but I need to weigh up if it’s worth getting an lp studio or spending money on it .

crunchman

Those wouldn't be my first choice of pickups.  I'd look for something in more of a PAF style.  Having said that, there is truth to what @ICBM said:

ICBM said:

Sell it and buy a Gibson Les Paul Studio.

You've just found what I have with every supposed ‘Gibson killer’ copy I’ve ever played - they just don’t sound as good as a good Gibson.

Of course the next problem is finding a good Gibson . Although to be fair, they’re more common than often thought...

There is one drawback with that though.  The current version of the Les Paul Studio has the horrible "slim taper" neck profile. If budget allows I'd just bite the bullet and try to find a good Les Paul Traditional.

guitars4you

No guarantee that what ever funds you throw at it will give you what you want

How does it sound acoustically - dull or lively - that might be a good starting ground to explore

1st of all do you like the way it feels and plays - If yes then worth a few additional edits - If no, then end of - Move on

If you are keeping it then chances are the cutting out is a dicky switch or jack socket - Might be okay once contacts cleaned up  Depends on which Tokai and the grade of electrics - Might need to be replaced

Personally I'm not a fan of those DiMarzio pick-ups - to griity and hot for me - Not enough 'vintage' character or soul - That is a matter of taste though - the more gain you use the better they become - So a bit surprised they are 'dull and lacking in sizzle'

Better wiring loom with better pots with a better taper is a start - But marginal gain to the overall tone you'd achieve - More a case of better taper across the 1-10 range, to give subtle but effective variation for more control over the gain/expression you can get from the guitar and amp

ICBM

riffpowers said:

I’ve currently got a buyer who’s interested but I need to weigh up if it’s worth getting an lp studio or spending money on it .

You will never make it sound right no matter how much you upgrade it. Sell it to someone who thinks otherwise - many people are very happy with their Tokais, Edwards, Grecos etc - and buy the real thing.

sweepy

Or save up for a s/h LP Traditional

Danielsguitars

My opinion is a lower wind pickup would do it plus 50's wiring helps too

If it's good acoustically then it should be good plugged in

Funkfingers

ICBM said:

You've just found what I have with every supposed ‘Gibson killer’ copy I’ve ever played - they just don’t sound as good as a good Gibson.

It's all in the mind. 

I had a MIJ Love Rock 50 or 60, whacked in a pair of Seymour Duncan pickups, upgraded the pots, had it set up nicely. My musical collaborator had (and still has) a 1977 Gibson LP Custom. Despite all of the Norlin-era constructional eccentricities, there was always something more psychologically satisfying about playing the guitar that legitimately wore the G word on the headstock. No matter how snazzy the modifications on my Tokai, it could never be the item that it sought to emulate.

At the other extreme, I now own a Gibson Les Paul and a PRS Singlecut. The latter is probably a better built guitar but it is still definitely not a Gibson. (IMO, this is a good thing. Vive la difference.)

riffpowers said:

would a jb/jazz set suit it better ?

From within the Seymour Duncan range, my preferences are:
NECK/RHYTHM - Pearly Gates (open), Saturday Night Special (covered), '59 with A4 magnet swap and cover.
BRIDGE/TREBLE - Custom, JB, Brobucker

The Whole Lotta Humbucker pair could be interesting.

Numerous UK pickup builders have high quality products that might suit your requirements. Try asking them nicely and don't get your knickers in a twist if they do not reply to your e-mail within thirty seconds.

soma1975

I've played plenty of non-Gibson Les Pauls that were better sounding and playing instruments than plenty of Gibson Les Pauls. If you love how your plays and sounds acoustically then stick with it.  

I've got a set of Ox4 A4 low winds in my LP and 50s wiring replacing the stock Gibson Burstbucker Pros and PCB thing that was in there. So much more 'open' sounding and articulate than it was before - like someone took a blanket off the sound. Can still handle big levels of gain but now it lets you use the tone control and vol controls to change your tone and gain levels properly too. 

I think the wiring change almost had as much of an impact as the pickup change did. 

ICBM

Funkfingers said:

It's all in the mind. 

I had a MIJ Love Rock 50 or 60, whacked in a pair of Seymour Duncan pickups, upgraded the pots, had it set up nicely. My musical collaborator had (and still has) a 1977 Gibson LP Custom. Despite all of the Norlin-era constructional eccentricities, there was always something more psychologically satisfying about playing the guitar that legitimately wore the G word on the headstock. No matter how snazzy the modifications on my Tokai, it could never be the item that it sought to emulate.

At the other extreme, I now own a Gibson Les Paul and a PRS Singlecut. The latter is probably a better built guitar but it is still definitely not a Gibson. (IMO, this is a good thing. Vive la difference.)

Exactly. It may be all in the mind, but that doesn't make it less real.

Personally I do think that Gibsons - even most Norlins - do have *something* different about the sound too. It's hard to put a finger on what makes the difference - wood, glues, finish, magic unicorn horn dust, I don't know. I do know it's not the hardware or the length of the neck tenon - but I still think there is one, and once you've heard it, you'll never be happy with a guitar that doesn't have it.

soma1975 said:

I've played plenty of non-Gibson Les Pauls that were better sounding and playing instruments than plenty of Gibson Les Pauls.

I don't disagree with that - Gibson do make some real howlers - but I've still never played one single copy that sounds as good as a *good* Gibson.

xscaramanga

ICBM said:

Sell it and buy a Gibson Les Paul Studio.

You've just found what I have with every supposed ‘Gibson killer’ copy I’ve ever played - they just don’t sound as good as a good Gibson.

Of course the next problem is finding a good Gibson . Although to be fair, they’re more common than often thought...

Interesting to hear you say this. A friend of mine recently brought round his top-of-the-line recent Tokai Love Rock (not sure of model but he said it was "basically an R7"). I played it—well made, nice playability, but sounded utterly dead unplugged and was less good than any Gibson I can remember playing. Sounded OK plugged in mind thanks to some Seymour Seth Lovers. But anyway, that's a sample size of 1 so I wasn't planning to generalise about Tokais from it.

To the OP: I agree with the others pots can make a difference. If it's a lack of brightness and airiness you're suffering from, and you want less compression, pickups at the opposite end of the spectrum might do well. I'd look in the vintage output section of manufacturers' catalogues.

merciful-evans

If it was mine I would have it re-wired with switchcraft pots, switch & jacksocket.

Then reassess the sound.

sweepy

The reason I had a custom build LP is that no Tokai Burny etc quite sounds like a good Gibson Les Paul. The more you research what makes a good Les Paul, the more you come to the realisation that Tokai etc aren’t even close. 

p90fool

It doesn't have to be a real Gibson, but IME it has to be mahogany rather than "mahogany".

I've never played an Asian copy which sounds like a proper Les Paul either, no matter how well put together, and I've often wondered whether the rather lax way of defining sub species of wood is the reason. 

John_A

Bought my 1979 Tokai LS80 12 years ago, had 3 Gibson’s at the time, all of which have gone, and bought and sold another 4 since including a R8, and the Tokai is still here.  IMO it’s a better guitar than any Gibson I’ve played.

xscaramanga

sweepy said:

The reason I had a custom build LP is that no Tokai Burny etc quite sounds like a good Gibson Les Paul. The more you research what makes a good Les Paul, the more you come to the realisation that Tokai etc aren’t even close. 

What particular aspects do feel are crucial that the copyists don't do?

Schnozz

Tokai will have the same inconsistency as Gibson or Fender. Japanese luthiers went over to America to pull apart 50s guitars in the 70s, so they will know how to build them lol.

I've found their Fender copies to be less consistent than their Gibson copies, so I would buy in person, whereas I wouldn't for Yamaha etc.

The MKII pickups are probably quite similar to the output of your Dimarzios, so you will need something with less output to improve the dynamics.

I love the Super Distortion is thinner bodied guitars, such as a Flying V, but not so much a Les Paul.

What amp are you using? And what is your other LP/pickups?

ICBM

jonnyscaramanga said:

What particular aspects do feel are crucial that the copyists don't do?

I genuinely don't know, even though I think they don't get it right - I would actually love to find out. It could be a combination of several factors rather than only one.

For what it's worth I have a Japanese Aria which I love, but I would never say sounds as good as a good Fender... it just doesn't. I actually prefer the ergonomics of it compared to a Fender, but that doesn't make it sound as good.

If it is one, Melvyn Hiscox - who used to be a member here for a while - wrote in his book about guitar-building that he thought the truss rod was a critical and often overlooked factor, because it alters the resonance of the whole neck, which is the most important part of the guitar for tone. Whether that's true or not I don't know either, but it's at least as likely as the glue or the finish...