Expensive Guitars

Twinfan

RaymondLin said:

I can imagine they are worth it as to the eye of the beholder it always is, but as someone who don't have one....I give it a pass as £2k is where my happy medium is.

If you haven't already done so, you should try a Private Stock PRS to compare to your core models. 

Whitecat

https://reverb.com/uk/news/guitaronomics-how-much-does-it-actually-cost-to-build-a-guitar

digitalscream

OK, for the custom shop bit, imagine there's a luthier with plenty of experience working there, being paid around £50-60k/year.

One week of his time is worth a grand, plus all the employer overheads that go into employing him. That make him cost about £1500/week, give or take.

Imagine he takes a couple of weeks to build and finish a guitar, then add in all the materials he used.

That's a £4k guitar right there, without any profit for the business.

A more reasonable and likely example would simply be that he's spent a week on it instead of two weeks, and it's still a £4k guitar but now the business has made a profit.

Jonathanthomas83

You get what you pay for, IMO.

I try not to look at price (I know that sounds bonkers), but say I tried a PRS - they're renowned for being really nice to play...if I want one, I need to fork out for it...there may come a time where whatever the cost, I know I want a PRS and nothing else would matter.

Same with other brands, Suhr are very good, again expensive.

Lately, I've got into Custom Shop because again, they are my idea of perfect guitars and feel, play and sound incredible.

The difference between my old Epiphone Les Paul and my Gibson R8 is night and day. In some ways, the difference between my R8 and Custom 24 is night and day too, but that's a different story!

I started with a Yamaha AES500 which I paid £299 for back in early 00's - https://www.mansons.co.uk/product/preowned-yamaha-aes500-silver-6049

The difference between that and my next guitar - Epiphone Les Paul was huge

The difference between the Epi and my Gibson Les Paul Standard 2013 was tangible - but I hated the tailpiece being off the body

The difference between the Standard and the R8 was all in the feel and the build quality. And it sounded a lot sweeter and sounds more like a Les Paul should, IMO.

Blaendulais

Twinfan said:

RaymondLin said:

I can imagine they are worth it as to the eye of the beholder it always is, but as someone who don't have one....I give it a pass as £2k is where my happy medium is.

If you haven't already done so, you should try a Private Stock PRS to compare to your core models. 

Do they have a soul unlike the core models?

Twinfan

Blaendulais said:

Do they have a soul unlike the core models?

I wondered when the PRS bashing would start.  Thanks.

Danielsguitars

thegummy said:

customkits said:

You'll find there's a world of difference between mass made and handmade guitars like a probett for instance , both cost about the same for a high end guitar and only one is worth it imo

You're paying alot for a big name brand, only the person buying it can say if it's worth it to them

Apart from being able to customise the specs, what's actually better about the handmade one compared to even like a Fender or Gibson Standard?

You're paying for someone's time to make it start to finish for one thing and it's bloody time consuming i know that much then the woods, they're alot more expensive for nice mahogany, I'd reckon that it's at least £250 to £300 for body neck fretboard and a nice maple cap, then there's the parts which are alot higher for small makers but you get quality ones plus pickups etc, then the nitro finish is very time consuming, the whole thing costs more to make and better value for money over mass produced imo

There's not a great return for all the work put in but someone just loves to build guitars, you also get a personal experience, i recently had someone come over to try his neck out and was to his liking so it's better for him

Philly_Q

BBBlues said:

You seem to be talking about new guitars here. Anything custom shop level or equivalent has been over £2k for the last decade. So if you’re saying 2k is your price cap: 

Fender under 2k: AVRI
Fender over 2k: anything custom shop

Gibson under 2k: LP standard
Gibson over 2k: R8 or R9

If you can’t tell the difference between those guitars then there’s no talking sense.

That sums it up nicely for me.  Prices have gone up quite a lot in the last few years and £2k - whilst obviously not "cheap" - is about the point where things start happening.  Ten or fifteen years ago I might have said £1.5k or even £1k.

There really is a significant difference between the Fender or Gibson USA production guitars and the Custom Shop offerings.  In fact I'd say the upper end of Fender Mexico gives Fender USA a closer run for its money than Fender USA gives Fender Custom Shop.

But it's true, the price jumps within the ranges are significant.  Is it worth it?  It depends what you can afford (or are happy to pay) but more importantly it depends which guitar you like best.  Nothing's right or wrong here.

p90fool

Labour costs and buyer confirmation bias.

Small scale luthiers have higher overheads so you pay for that, whether the finished object you hold in your hand is any better or not. Hopefully it will play well and sound good because of the time spent on it, but it'll still cost you even if it's a dead old lump. 

In the case of Gibson and Fender "Custom" shops it mainly marketing and spec differences. 

An R9 has a different spec to a Standard, but is not "better" unless you have to have those features. 

People who spend the money will tell you there's a night and day difference between their crappy old 2.5k guitar and their sublime new 4k guitar - it's best not to get into a debate with these people. 

Twinfan

p90fool said:

In the case of Gibson and Fender "Custom" shops it mainly marketing and spec differences. 

An R9 has a different spec to a Standard, but is not "better" unless you have to have those features. 

I would disagree on these points.  The factories these days filter off the good wood and top luthiers into their Custom Shop.  It's not a fair fight to compare a USA GIbson versus a CS Gibson and the difference is more than spec and marketing.  The raw ingredients and the chef are arguable 'better' and this filters into the final product.

chris78

It’s been debated a million times, but for what it’s worth, in the Fender line, I think the master built stuff is consistently very good indeed, but my hands and ears can’t tell the difference enough compared to team built so I don’t buy them. My hands and ears can tell the difference between a cs and regular production model so that’s where my money goes
If you can’t tell the difference, I envy you as I’d rather buy cheaper guitars and save the money

HandwrittenHero

Legionreturns said:

The law of diminishing returns definitely applies. 

A £4k guitar is 100% definitely not twice as good as a £2k one. It may be "better" ...but unless in the hands of a very accomplished guitarist, it's unlikely to be noticeably so. 

The question is how much you're prepared to spend for maybe 5% improvement and some prestige/ bragging rights. 

The % argument I prefer to use is lap time...I think for example someone would be hard pressed to argue that paying 3x for my 52 AV Tele what I did the MIM FSR Tele meant it was 3x the guitar. Although in terms of amount of time on lap if it clocks up better than 3x because I'm enjoying it more, if I improve leaps and bounds etc. from the time, am inspired by the guitar...that's worth the sticker price.

FWIW the MIM FSR got moved on, the 52 is still here. Tone is more to my liking, electronics are better...AV 52 looks a lot more pleasing in colour/fittings/aesthetics...feel of the neck and radius is preferred.

Obviously some of those things could be remedied on a cheaper guitar to make it what you want, or you may luck out and find what works for you offered at a good price. A Baja Tele ticks some of the playability and tone above for example.

jonnyburgo

It’s all mojo, ie bullshit that you pay for. Only small builders can justify high prices, the other stuff is factory built let’s not forget that. Even if it is “small batch” it’s all marketing pitch. And people absolutely love it. Does an artisan loaf of bread taste better than a fresh loaf from the counter at Tesco? In my opinion does it fuck but you can have a bit of a pose stepping out of the deli with your rustic paper bag.

crunchman

Philly_Q said:

There really is a significant difference between the Fender or Gibson USA production guitars and the Custom Shop offerings.  In fact I'd say the upper end of Fender Mexico gives Fender USA a closer run for its money than Fender USA gives Fender Custom Shop.

Not sure this is entirely true.  You can find very good factory ones, and not so good CS ones.

I've had 3 CS Gibsons, and I sold the first one after going into a shop and using a Les Paul Traditional to try a pedal in a shop when I was on holiday in the States.  That Traditional was better than the CS guitar I had at the time.  I came home, put the CS Les Paul up for sale, and went to Guitar Village because they had the usual end of year Gibson blowout, and their Les Paul Traditionals were £500 off.  I tried 5 or 6 Traditionals, and none of them were that great - nowhere near as good as the one I had tried in the US.  I then tried a second hand R8, and it utterly blew them all away.

You can find really good factory ones, but they are fewer and further between.  You might have to try 10 guitars to find a really good one, where a much higher proportion of custom shop ones are really good.  That Les Paul Traditional that I tried in the US was definitely better than the Custom Shop reissue  I had at the time.

Likewise with Fender, there is a lot of variation between guitars.  I have a really great AVRI Strat.  I wasn't even looking to buy a guitar when I bought it.  I was in a shop to try out an amp and they got this one down off the wall to try the amp with.  I was blown away by how good the guitar was, and ended up going back a week or two later and buying the guitar.  After that, if I was in a shop to try an amp, I always tried to use a Strat of the same model as mine.  I gave up after a while, as I never found one that was anywhere close.  Again, you can find great guitars from the factory production - you just have to play more of them to find them.

Generally the Custom shop will cherry pick what they think is the best wood, so there is a much higher chance of a great guitar, but you can find great ones that are not Custom Shop.  I've owned 4 Teles, including a Custom Shop one.  I don't miss the CS guitar since I've sold it.  I also had a Baja that I sold.  If you gave me the choice of one of them back, I'd probably go for the Baja.  I'd prefer a nice nitro finish Baja, but that was a really good guitar.

Edit:  regarding your other point, I agree on the quality of the higher end Mexican Fenders.  If I had to buy sight unseen, I'd rather have a Classic Series than an American Professional.

Maynehead

jonnyburgo said:

Does an artisan loaf of bread taste better than a fresh loaf from the counter at Tesco? In my opinion does it fuck but you can have a bit of a pose stepping out of the deli with your rustic paper bag.

Actually, it usually tastes miles better...  but I agree with your points on guitars

Grumpyrocker

Maynehead said:

jonnyburgo said:

Does an artisan loaf of bread taste better than a fresh loaf from the counter at Tesco? In my opinion does it fuck but you can have a bit of a pose stepping out of the deli with your rustic paper bag.

Actually, it usually tastes miles better...  but I agree with your points on guitars

Yep my local village bakery makes bread that is easily better than anything available at Tesco. 

RaymondLin

jonnyburgo said:

It’s all mojo, ie bullshit that you pay for. Only small builders can justify high prices, the other stuff is factory built let’s not forget that. Even if it is “small batch” it’s all marketing pitch. And people absolutely love it. Does an artisan loaf of bread taste better than a fresh loaf from the counter at Tesco? In my opinion does it fuck but you can have a bit of a pose stepping out of the deli with your rustic paper bag.

Have a watch on bread.

terada

My R9 is the best les Paul I’ve ever played (and I’ve played one or two  ). It is also the most expensive guitar I’ve ever bought, and will bring a lifetime of fun. 

By contrast, a MacBook Pro costs as much as the R8s were last year, and will only last a few years. 

p90fool

Twinfan said:

p90fool said:

In the case of Gibson and Fender "Custom" shops it mainly marketing and spec differences. 

An R9 has a different spec to a Standard, but is not "better" unless you have to have those features. 

I would disagree on these points.  The factories these days filter off the good wood and top luthiers into their Custom Shop.  It's not a fair fight to compare a USA GIbson versus a CS Gibson and the difference is more than spec and marketing.  The raw ingredients and the chef are arguable 'better' and this filters into the final product.

"Arguably" is exactly the right word. 

There is no evidence to suggest that Gibson Custom Shop wood is "better" other than perhaps being chosen for maximum stripy-ness, and when a Top Luthier performs simple tasks which are done hundreds of times a day next door on the production line you are paying his wages. 

I agree that an R9 has generally had more time lavished on it than a Standard, but to what end? What if you WANT coil taps, pickups with a bit of grunt and fat frets? 

The difference in price is to do with similarity of spec to a 1959 guitar, and that has WAY more to do with market placement than quality of materials. 

RaymondLin

terada said:

My R9 is the best les Paul I’ve ever played (and I’ve played one or two  ). It is also the most expensive guitar I’ve ever bought, and will bring a lifetime of fun. 

By contrast, a MacBook Pro costs as much as the R8s were last year, and will only last a few years. 

Lol, when you put it that way.  In the past 12 months I've bought 2 cameras at £2k, a MPB at £2400 and no guitars.