I dont think Helix is for me.

John_A

@theflyisback ;Until recently I had an iphone5 that worked fine, my Helix is 2 1/2 years old and far from obsolete, my boss me-5 was 15 years old and still working and sounding fine when I sold it.

as a guitarist, a box that replaces all your amps and pedals is surely worth more to you than a smartphone 

theflyisback

I get what your saying John. iPhone is perhaps a not so straightforward comparison. 

20 years ago I had a Digitech RP7 valve multi fx which was the dogs nads and cost me a fortune. I would say though that a digitech elements which you can pick up for about £35 quid these days would probably outperform it. 

digitalscream

theflyisback said:

I get what your saying John. iPhone is perhaps a not so straightforward comparison. 

20 years ago I had a Digitech RP7 valve multi fx which was the dogs nads and cost me a fortune. I would say though that a digitech elements which you can pick up for about £35 quid these days would probably outperform it. 

I presume you don't own a car, then?

theflyisback

digitalscream said:

theflyisback said:

I get what your saying John. iPhone is perhaps a not so straightforward comparison. 

20 years ago I had a Digitech RP7 valve multi fx which was the dogs nads and cost me a fortune. I would say though that a digitech elements which you can pick up for about £35 quid these days would probably outperform it. 

I presume you don't own a car, then?

Haha yes I’m in that rabbit hole too.

i guess what I’m saying is that I would buy say a PlayStation knowing that in 4 years it would be obsolete and less fulfilling. There isn’t an equal alternative unless I stick to analogue board games. 

I feel (maybe wrongly) I would be buying a helix to cover the next 4 years which is feasible. But there is an alternative, I buy a Princeton amp for the same money and in 4 years I’ll probably only need buy some new tubes and spend the ’new helix investment’ money on a trip to Vegas as I wouldn’t need a new Princeton/helix for the following four years. 

Maybe the helix is the pinnacle though though and in four years time there won’t be anything better.

sweepy

The Helix is incredibly cheap for what it is, the Axe Fx3 and pedalboard will set you back £4K but I agree it’s a faff and there is the same kind of simplistic elegance with an Amp  that you get with a Telecaster or SG Jnr etc

John_A

PlayStation = a football like Helix = a Princeton

The way I look at it is they are tools to help me do my job to the best of my ability, if I was a delivery driver I wouldn’t keep my bike and have a trip to Vegas, I’d buy a van

The choice is yours, obviously, and investing in tech/cars and accepting the associated depreciation, but not in guitar gear seems at odds with being a guitarist.  Then again, a Princeton may be perfect for what you do

sgosden

if apple made the helix, then 3.0 firmware would include DSP limiters :P

FarleyUK

theflyisback said:

Maybe the helix is the pinnacle though though and in four years time there won’t be anything better.

There already is

(Note - that's a slightly tongue in cheek response as I know it's not a simple answer)

digitalscream

theflyisback said:

digitalscream said:

theflyisback said:

I get what your saying John. iPhone is perhaps a not so straightforward comparison. 

20 years ago I had a Digitech RP7 valve multi fx which was the dogs nads and cost me a fortune. I would say though that a digitech elements which you can pick up for about £35 quid these days would probably outperform it. 

I presume you don't own a car, then?

Haha yes I’m in that rabbit hole too.

i guess what I’m saying is that I would buy say a PlayStation knowing that in 4 years it would be obsolete and less fulfilling. There isn’t an equal alternative unless I stick to analogue board games. 

I feel (maybe wrongly) I would be buying a helix to cover the next 4 years which is feasible. But there is an alternative, I buy a Princeton amp for the same money and in 4 years I’ll probably only need buy some new tubes and spend the ’new helix investment’ money on a trip to Vegas as I wouldn’t need a new Princeton/helix for the following four years. 

Maybe the helix is the pinnacle though though and in four years time there won’t be anything better.

What makes you think the Helix will suddenly stop working in four years' time?

gearaddict

If a Princeton on it's own does everything you need musically then I don't think you are the target market for Helix 

shuikit

There was a post on tgp a couple months ago (iirc by Frank from L6) saying that there were currently no plans to update the helix hardware.  However there are many plans for updates to the firmware. 

There are a few things in the upcoming 2.8 firmware that I'm actually looking forward to.  This is the flip side to the whole technology being obsolete thing, you can actually end up with more and/or a better product than when you first purchased it, whereas if you by a Princeton, next year, it's still a Princeton...

John_A

shuikit said:

There was a post on tgp a couple months ago (iirc by Frank from L6) saying that there were currently no plans to update the helix hardware.  However there are many plans for updates to the firmware. 

There are a few things in the upcoming 2.8 firmware that I'm actually looking forward to.  This is the flip side to the whole technology being obsolete thing, you can actually end up with more and/or a better product than when you first purchased it, whereas if you by a Princeton, next year, it's still a Princeton...

This exactly - for my current £40 a month (and falling) cost of ownership Ive had hundreds of 'free' amps and effects

digitalscream

John_A said:

shuikit said:

There was a post on tgp a couple months ago (iirc by Frank from L6) saying that there were currently no plans to update the helix hardware.  However there are many plans for updates to the firmware. 

There are a few things in the upcoming 2.8 firmware that I'm actually looking forward to.  This is the flip side to the whole technology being obsolete thing, you can actually end up with more and/or a better product than when you first purchased it, whereas if you by a Princeton, next year, it's still a Princeton...

This exactly - for my current £40 a month (and falling) cost of ownership Ive had hundreds of 'free' amps and effects

Indeed. For my requirements, the Helix was unusable on release. Since then, the additional features have made it perfect for my needs and then some...for zero additional outlay. Not only can the same not be said of valve amps, I can't actually say the same of any other modeller (otherwise I'd have one of those instead).

Cirrus

theflyisback said:

Haha yes I’m in that rabbit hole too.

i guess what I’m saying is that I would buy say a PlayStation knowing that in 4 years it would be obsolete and less fulfilling. There isn’t an equal alternative unless I stick to analogue board games. 

I feel (maybe wrongly) I would be buying a helix to cover the next 4 years which is feasible. But there is an alternative, I buy a Princeton amp for the same money and in 4 years I’ll probably only need buy some new tubes and spend the ’new helix investment’ money on a trip to Vegas as I wouldn’t need a new Princeton/helix for the following four years. 

Maybe the helix is the pinnacle though though and in four years time there won’t be anything better.

I've got to say (I've said it before)…


I think this attitude is fundamentally revealing of the psychology behind amp modellers that needs to be overcome - why compare a professional tool to an iPhone at all, let alone a Playstation?


Unless it breaks, if it sounds good when you buy it then it still sounds good 5, 10, 15 years down the line.


"But when I bought it, it cost £1500 and in 15 years I won't be able to sell it for £50!"


Well, who cares? If it's something that you use, then once the money is spent all you have is the unit, which either turns out to be worth it for you or it doesn't. And hey, if you like it, then maybe it's a good thing that you can buy a replacement 2nd hand for £50 if it does break! Get another two, keep them as spares.


For me, it comes down to the question of whether it's a consumer product or a professional tool. Two case studies; the TC2290 delay and the Line 6 Spider Valve amp. The former is a professional digital rack unit launched in 1985. 33 years later, you can buy one 2nd hand for £1000 on ebay. 3 decade old digital technology. The latter is what, 10 years old? They sounded shit then, and they sound shit now. They were only ever designed to be a "my first amp" for people starting out, and consequently they aren't desirable. The latter, you could justify comparing to a PlayStation. It's a consumer entertainment product built to a price. The former, you couldn't. It's a well engineered professional tool that has stood the test of time.

Now, obviously we have no idea what the future failure rate will be for the Helix, or what support Line 6 will offer over the years. But I think it's doing it a disservice to assume that it's a disposable product that'll quickly become obsolete - it certainly seems to have been well engineered, and in the opinion of many there are great sounds to be had from it.

The comparison to valve amps is interesting too. I worked out that over the approx. 10 years I was gigging + recording various combinations of valve amps, I spent well over a grand in valves alone. In 2016 I bought a UK made AC30 for £400 which would have sold for at least £850 two years before that. Since then I've seen similar models sell for as low as £300. The one remaining valve amp I have cost a grand new in 2010, I bought it for £350 in 2015, and in late 2017 I was unable to sell it at all - nobody wanted it! A great 30 watt EL84 1x12 valve combo.


Personally, I think many Helixes, Kempers, Axe FXs will be working fine in 10 years and still sound at least as good as they did the day they were purchased. The artists will be using them to make art, and the consumer-minded people might be lusting after some new piece of gear or weeping that they're not going to see a return on their outlay, but that just totally misses the point, to me.

theflyisback

gearaddict said:

If a Princeton on it's own does everything you need musically then I don't think you are the target market for Helix 

Tonally and options wise I don’t really need a helix you’re right. 

I pretty much have a ‘sound’ that suits my band and style with pedals doing their bits.

i think a helix would be ideal in a cover band situation or experimentation.

my need for a helix is a reliability and consistency thing, I.e can it do what I want with more ease than less stress than my current set up and can it do my sound in every situation ie home, gigs, rehearsal and recording. 

And will that setup sustain me for the next 20-30 years which is how long I would hope to do it for so much so that for a rig of say £2000 outlay will it be futureproof like a valve amp and some carefully chosen pedals would (to a reasonable extent)

So my needs aren’t the same as everyone of course.

The cost aspect one isnt relative in the same way as a phone or a car. I have a budget for my music gear which I will set aside from the wife/household as it’s not a source of income for me (sadly yet) 

digitalscream

Actually, there's a funny/interesting point in all this.

Often, folk use 4 years as the benchmark for depreciation (I have no idea why, but it often comes up), and they were saying exactly that when it was released.

The Helix was released on 11th June 2015 - 3 years and 8 months ago, almost to the day.

Still the same going rate, and it's actually more useful than it was then. I don't think that's going to change in the next four months

(yes, I'm being pedantic, but it's fun )

EDIT: Actually, looking at the Classifieds section, I honestly think that it's disingenuous of at least 50% of our members to suggest that being worth something in 4 years' time is even relevant . Far more realistic to assume they'll flip it within a year like everything else, at which point the depreciation is actually better than a valve amp. Amps tend to lose about 30-40% of their value just from being second hand, whereas the Helix family seem to lose 15-20%. I have no idea why, mind.

PolarityMan

digitalscream said:

Still the same going rate, and it's actually more useful than it was then. I don't think that's going to change in the next four months

In fact I heard the next firmware is getting a revv model! 

Also this might be pretty cool:

• Command Center > Hotkeys—The Command Center can now send QWERTY hotkeys (keyboard shortcuts with or without modifiers such as SHIFT, OPTION/ALT, and COMMAND) to your Mac or PC via USB. Helix can now control virtually any software ever made, including DAWs, DJ software, lighting software, media players, video software, browsers, photo editing software, video games, Powerpoint, Excel… If you can control it with your computer keyboard, you can now control it with your feet... or preset or snapshot recall. From the Command Center screen, select a footswitch and turn Knob 1 (Command) to select “Hotkey.” Turn knobs 2-5 to select the desired keystroke. If the keystroke doesn’t have modifiers, leave knobs 2, 3, and 4 set to “None”. IMPORTANT! Note that the first time you update Helix/HX to 2.80, your Mac or PC may ask what kind of keyboard you have connected. Just ignore this and close the window

Could see that as handy for controlling repaer when recording.

shuikit

PolarityMan said:

In fact I heard the next firmware is getting a revv model! 

looks like it
https://line6.com/support/topic/18284-helix-firmware-280-available-spring-2019/

PolarityMan

I can see getting a bunch of use out of the SVT pro too

John_A

PolarityMan said:

I can see getting a bunch of use out of the SVT pro too

The Helix bass models are amazing, I love recording just so I can demonstrate to our bass player how shit his amp sounds