Will real amps devalue more if the 'next generation' of modelling gear sounds closer?

Clarky

CD's are actually far superior to vinyl..

they have deeper lows, higher highs and a much much bigger dynamic range..

the audio capabilities of vinyl sits well within what CD can do..

and all this "yeah but vinyl is analogue and CD is digital" argument is just complete shite.. especially when you find out how all this stuff works...

EdGrip

Yeah but vinyl is, of course, a far more beautiful thing and concept and ritual and experience

I think CDs have suffered a lot by having their reputation tarnished by an arbitrary mp3 bitrate being deemed "CD quality" when it isn't - at least, I can hear the mp3 compression gremlins at that level. CDs are then diminished by association. 

The other thing is that the ability to reproduce a big dynamic range is a bit pointless if no producers are leaving us any dynamic range to enjoy...

Clarky

to a degree I'd agree that in some cases, vinyl can be a more pleasant listening experience..

but that's because of it's limitations rather than it's capabilities

also, mix / mastering engineers would purposely treat the mix for this type of medium

don't forget though that one person's "bright / harsh" is another's "sharp definition"

and all this varies from genre to genre

the thing I miss most about the old LP format is the beautiful art work and all the little extras you could get..

album covers like Space Ritual, Yessongs, Cultosaurus, War of the Worlds etc.. stunning stuff..

that kind of thing just can't translate to the minute CD jewel case..

downbytheriver

Sorry, if you don't think vinyl sounds better than Cd I doubt you've heard a decent system. As for knowing how it works, I don't give a toss how it works! It's how it sounds, and I think vinyl just sounds more musical. Or, in the case of guitar amps, how it feels. Of course I could be wrong........ Nah

dindude

Clarky said:

 once you're set up, you leave well alone..

This is actually the bit I don't think I would get on with (aside from the paralysis of too many options), I'm always slightly tweaking amp and pedals, even in the bedroom day on day, I might want ever so slightly less gain today, or slightly less treble, it really does depend on the day and what I'm "hearing" that day. These are slight changes but real ones all the same.

Now take those variances into a gig venue and even more "fine tuning" of your sound is necessary to take into account the volume and acoustic differences. To have to squint at a menu to do this is not for me. And to set once and forget for all rehearsal spaces and venues? Don't believe it for a minute.

As an aside, regarding valve amps dying, the latest issue of Guitarist Magazine has a survey and the results show that 49% use valve amps, 22% use transistor amps, 21% use digital modelling and 4% use software. So valve amps still on top but I bet that number looked very different even 10 years ago. And that, you could argue, is with an old mans mag!

Personally, so long as parts (namely valves themselves) are available, I think we're pretty lucky in that most guitar equipment, from the guitar, pickups, pedals, valve amps, etc, can be built pretty much in a shed by a craftsman / enthusiast and doesn't have to rely on mass volume of manufacture to exist. Sure you will end up paying the "true" price instead of picking up a Chibson and Joyo rip-off, but I don't think we need to fear the extinction of valve amps just yet.

bobblehat

timmysoft said:

I think there have been modelling amps out for years that do the job as well as a valve amp but the modeller stigma will always be attached. I'm a big fan of the line 6 flextone 3, I've used one a lot and at volume I could dial in recto and boosted 800 tones that were 95% there! to most audiences they wouldn't care as long as it's not painful to listen to. I also had the duo verb which was an incredible amp. I'm excited to see what the next steps are but I think we still have another 15-20 years of the valve amps ruling the roost

I gigged with a Flextone 3+ for 5-6 years and i loved it.

It struck a great balance between in depth modelling,tone shaping etc and being able to just plug in and get great sounds with just a few turns of the knobs.I was hoping they would bring out a flextone 4 but it never materialised. Sadly the DT range is just way too expensive for my needs.

I now gig with a Laney VC30 and pedals.I do use a Line 6 M5 for my delays and mods which sounds great.

Would go back to a digital amp but there isn't anything in the £300-£500 price range that sounds as good as my current set up and there doesn't seem to much on the horizon. 

ICBM

Clarky said:

CD's are actually far superior to vinyl..

they have deeper lows, higher highs and a much much bigger dynamic range..

the audio capabilities of vinyl sits well within what CD can do..

and all this "yeah but vinyl is analogue and CD is digital" argument is just complete shite.. especially when you find out how all this stuff works…

This is absolutely true, in the same way that solid-state is superior to valve for guitar amps as well .

Actually, I will admit to being a heretic and I prefer CD too. I think a lot of the 'experience' of vinyl is overhyped - it's got a certain cool vibe to it, but it doesn't actually sound better… it's just that the way it sounds worse can be subjectively pleasing .

Drew_TNBD

I like vinyl and CD's and mp3's.

I don't give a shit what writing implement my favourite writers use too!

Dave_Mc

wax cylinders are where it's at for tone. more organic. >:D<

Clarky

dindude said:

Clarky said:

 once you're set up, you leave well alone..

And to set once and forget for all rehearsal spaces and venues? Don't believe it for a minute.

it's actually true.. Chris has been with me at a 'live tone setup' session, rehearsals and live..

my live rig is Axe -> mixer -> poweramp

the mixer gives me 3 bands of eq.. some places may need a little cut or boost with the bass or treble and that's pretty much it..

I've toured with the VG-99.. exactly the same experience.. as was the 2120…

the trick is to do your homework with your live tones and dial them in at gig volume in a rehearsal studio [without the band and using an iPod through the PA so you nail the bulk of it in the mix]..

from there, the details and fine tuning get sorted at a band rehearsal.. then you don't touch it again.. you know it works..

soundcheck is literally turn up, set up, maybe make a small tweak with the mixer's EQ.. done..

what you have is a consistent and repeatable tone and performance experience..

fretmeister

ThePrettyDamned said:

ICBM said:

Pyroman said:

The sad part is, Kodak was one of the companies who pioneered digital imaging...  Talk about torpedoing your own product line.

Yes. You would have thought they would have understood the implications, although I suspect the development of the digital tech wasn't done at 'full senior management' level, if you see what I mean!

Or they simply underestimated the speed it would change - which demand for technology does, once it reaches the tipping point. Where are CRT monitors now either? Little more than ten years ago graphics pros wouldn't use anything else.

I've said this before, but I can see the same happening with valves - not for a certainty, but if it does happen it could be fast. Maybe to the point that it becomes a domino effect, once valve production falls and they get more expensive.

"We're all doomed... doomed I tell you!"

I would like for a solid state 6505 to exist.  The AMT preamp pedal is supposed to be amazingly close to the real deal, so at the very least they could hybridise the amp...

I've A-B'd the AMT P2 pedal against a 5150 - so close I couldn't tell the difference at the settings I like.

It's one of the reasons I finally decided to sell the 5150 as I could use the pedal with my Badger 30 and still nail the drive tone.

p90fool

Clarky said:

dindude said:

Clarky said:

 once you're set up, you leave well alone..

And to set once and forget for all rehearsal spaces and venues? Don't believe it for a minute.

it's actually true.. Chris has been with me at a 'live tone setup' session, rehearsals and live..

my live rig is Axe -> mixer -> poweramp

the mixer gives me 3 bands of eq.. some places may need a little cut or boost with the bass or treble and that's pretty much it..

This really IS true, I've been gigging heavily with a modeller for a couple of years and genuinely haven't touched any parameters inside it since the end of 2012. With global EQ and reverb on the desk it's worked perfectly everywhere so far, and even those only ever need the smallest of nudges.

The trick for me when I first got it was to have a full band/full PA rehearsal dedicated solely to guitar sounds. That way the other members know it'll be stop/start with lots of adjustments, and they don't get frustrated or feel we're wasting rehearsal time. It's saved us countless hours in rehearsal and soundcheck time since.

Having endless menus and parameters is like having a real amp twenty feet away on a big stage to me, it actually means I STOP fiddling and just play. If it sounded ok last night and the night before then it IS ok, just leave it alone!

guitarfishbay

fretmeister said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

ICBM said:

Pyroman said:

The sad part is, Kodak was one of the companies who pioneered digital imaging...  Talk about torpedoing your own product line.

Yes. You would have thought they would have understood the implications, although I suspect the development of the digital tech wasn't done at 'full senior management' level, if you see what I mean!

Or they simply underestimated the speed it would change - which demand for technology does, once it reaches the tipping point. Where are CRT monitors now either? Little more than ten years ago graphics pros wouldn't use anything else.

I've said this before, but I can see the same happening with valves - not for a certainty, but if it does happen it could be fast. Maybe to the point that it becomes a domino effect, once valve production falls and they get more expensive.

"We're all doomed... doomed I tell you!"

I would like for a solid state 6505 to exist.  The AMT preamp pedal is supposed to be amazingly close to the real deal, so at the very least they could hybridise the amp...

I've A-B'd the AMT P2 pedal against a 5150 - so close I couldn't tell the difference at the settings I like.

It's one of the reasons I finally decided to sell the 5150 as I could use the pedal with my Badger 30 and still nail the drive tone.

It is a weird one.  I kind of feel like 5150 type tones are better nailed by modellers/pedals than other high gain amps I'm familiar with.  The Kemper profiles I've heard of 5150s sound exactly like I remember the amp sounding, it is what stopped me buying an awesomely priced 5150 stack late last year (EVH 100 + 4x12 was about £900 inc delivery).  Though in truth I was gambling on Kemper having a footswitch and Mac editor out in January at NAMM, I guess I bet wrong there.

Clarky

p90fool said:

Clarky said:

dindude said:

Clarky said:

 once you're set up, you leave well alone..

And to set once and forget for all rehearsal spaces and venues? Don't believe it for a minute.

it's actually true.. Chris has been with me at a 'live tone setup' session, rehearsals and live..

my live rig is Axe -> mixer -> poweramp

the mixer gives me 3 bands of eq.. some places may need a little cut or boost with the bass or treble and that's pretty much it..

This really IS true, I've been gigging heavily with a modeller for a couple of years and genuinely haven't touched any parameters inside it since the end of 2012. With global EQ and reverb on the desk it's worked perfectly everywhere so far, and even those only ever need the smallest of nudges.

The trick for me when I first got it was to have a full band/full PA rehearsal dedicated solely to guitar sounds. That way the other members know it'll be stop/start with lots of adjustments, and they don't get frustrated or feel we're wasting rehearsal time. It's saved us countless hours in rehearsal and soundcheck time since.

Having endless menus and parameters is like having a real amp twenty feet away on a big stage to me, it actually means I STOP fiddling and just play. If it sounded ok last night and the night before then it IS ok, just leave it alone!

haa... awesome... I replaced the band with mp3's for this activity cos it has a higher boredom threshold than the band.. lmao

either way though.. as we've both found, it's all about prepping for live under live conditions...

I have two copies of my patches.. the studio ones [for practice] and the live ones [gig / rehearsals]

this means my practiice experience is the same as live in terms of where things are on the controllers and how they work etc.. so my practice and performance are the same thing [thinking of tones and the extras you need to do with your feet]

ESBlonde

I have played with lower cost digital units and a) didn't like the sound after a while, it got tiring on my ears. b) the novelty of all those amp models was just that and I found myself using one or at most two basic amp settings and using my playing skills to do the rest (until 'a' cut in).

Like the once need for a 100w amp and two 4x12s to perform we now need a small 50w 1x12 combo and a few pedals. Next all digital? The advancement in PA technology, portability and affordability means small backline will be the thing of the future for gigging. But just like others have mentioned the best products of yesterday will remain desirable, I mean people still buy second hand Stradivarius violins don't they?

NervousJohn

My main amp is an old AC-30, no master volume and one tone knob. What I like is that it's simple and sounds really good. Yes I can't practice at the volume that's the sweet starting to break up point, but I've yet to hear anything that would give me that tone at lower volumes either.

I've only tried to use the cheap end of modelling amps at rehearsal rooms and I hated them. Either they were too sterile clean or bee in a jam jar distortion. So is be interested to know if there is a modeller demo in that interesting in between point.

Dodge

NervousJohn said:

My main amp is an old AC-30, no master volume and one tone knob. What I like is that it's simple and sounds really good. Yes I can't practice at the volume that's the sweet starting to break up point, but I've yet to hear anything that would give me that tone at lower volumes either.

I've only tried to use the cheap end of modelling amps at rehearsal rooms and I hated them. Either they were too sterile clean or bee in a jam jar distortion. So is be interested to know if there is a modeller demo in that interesting in between point.

I agree - the best 'modelled' AC30 tone I've found is in Overloud TH2 through some decent impulse responses.  It gets me 80-85% of the tone of my Matchless Lightning and the transition between clean and overdrive is the most pleasing to me.  I've tried Amplitube, Softtube, Guitar Rig, Waves and Revalver and Overloud is the closest.

In terms of an analogue equivalent, the AMT V-1 is good, I still regret selling mine (hence why I'm after another!) - the tone I got through the AMT and impulse responses was possibly the closest yet - perhaps 90%.  I wished I'd tried it through a power amp and cab.

Clarky

I've yet to hear PC / Mac based modelling software that's any good.. they all sound really nasty to me..

Guitar Rig is awesome for keys and other audio processing provided that you don't use the amp and cab modelling..

the only time I've done anything sensible guitar related with Guitar Rig was when adding other fx to either a dry guitar tone that's on it's way into the Axe-FX [stompts before the amp stuff], or when processing the reamped tone after the Axe-FX has done it's thing.. but even then, I have other AU's that are much better for processing the reamped tone [reverbs / delays / limiting / EQ etc]

and all of the lower end modellers are nasty too.. they never seem to really nail the highs which is why most folk [including me] find them fatiguing to listen to..

I can't say that I'd tried or heard every modeller out there.. but of the one's I have:

Axe-FX II: I think is the best / most accurate modeller there is in terms of tone, feel and behaviour. It really is like the real thing and for most of the amps in there.. you'd be pushed to be able to hear / feel the difference. And recorded in the studio, most amp models are pretty much impossible to tell from the real thing..

Kemper KPA: I've never played one, but the tones I've heard recorded are excellent. And the folks I know that have one love it.

Axe-FX Standard and Ultra are very very good. Never tried one of these either, but I've heard gret recordings..

VG-99: In terms of model accuracy it's miles away. So the "JCM800" is a "bright / crunchy" model, but not quite a JCM800. However, the tones themselves [ignoring the amp names and what they are trying to be] are very good sounding / feeling. So although as a 'modeller' it fails, as an all in one guitar FX unit it's excellent. You can dial in some great tones. I've toured one of these many times and really liked it.

Boss GT10 and GT-100 are cut from the same cloth as the VG-99. Great tones that are kinda close to what they're trying to be but not right on the money. So if you treat the model 'names' as a tonal guideline rather than a precise thing, you'll find you can get some lovely sounding and feeling tones in the general tonal direction of the amp model's name

Eleven Rack: know nothing about them, but users of them speak quite highly of them.. so from what I gather they seem to sit at the better end of the scale.

Digitech GSP-1101: I tried one once in a shop.. sounded and felt very nice to me. But fell short of control capabilities so it couldn't meet my needs.. so tone wise this is one of the better units too..

Pod: hated it.. sounded wasp-ish

Guitar Rig / Waves GTR: plain nasty

I've heard good things about the Line6 HD500, but I know nothing about them at all

I think that generally [as with most things] the further down the quality scale you go the worse things get.. but with modellers it's not a very even spread of quality.. most of them ain't that great.. a great many are very nasty, and just a few at the top end are excellent [and costly].. I think the prob with most folks perception of modellers is that generally they tend to only have had experience with those that are most available to try out.. and that vast majority of them are at the lower end.. or worse cos they're PC plug-ins..

Drew_TNBD

A hell of a lot of them are using basic waveshaping DSP and stacked IIR filtering, and they end up sounding very little like the actual amp. You have to model down to the component level like we do in our DCAM modelling for it to be anywhere near the real thing.

Some of them are quite good though. I still think LePoulin's LE456 is a good amp sim, whether it sounds like an ENGL or not is another question. I don't much care as long as it sounds good.

Guitar Rig is awful on guitar. The effects are nice though.

Pod HD is good for some headphone jamming late at night. Not really all that for anything else imho, although I've heard other people get really good tones from it.

I didn't like the high-gain sims on the GSP1101 I had. I really hated *all* of the amp sims on the GT-100 I had. Effects were nice on both of them though.

Drew_TNBD

I remember when Jimbo AB'd me Amplitube 3 and his Axe FX II last year (or maybe the year before that???) and it was NIGHT AND DAY how better the Axe sounded. It's one of the things that convinced me. The other thing was hearing it through his Fryette power amp into a 2x12 with Celestion golds. I really *really* liked the VH4 model through that setup, and I actually preferred it to his CAE amp.

The Soldano in Amplitube is pretty good. But the Amplitube cabs universally suck.