Acoustic panel positioning

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  • WhistlerWhistler Frets: 44
    What is meant by acoustic fabric is any fabric that is breathable, that is, you can blow through it. I would expect speaker cloth to be breathable.

    I had to laugh at the marketing blub in your linked product: it will allow sound through. If it didn't then we could save tens of thousands of pounds in building soundproof studios by putting up a thin cloth instead. You have to wonder where these serious companies get their marketing from.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 542
    I saw another fabric cloth but it costs twice as much, so I'd rather keep costs down and go with the cheaper option if it'll do the job. And yes marketing stuff is always present, I was going to just wrap a dust sheet over it but wanted a cloth as well. Getting 4 panels done 100mm thick and will see how we go, although I have a feeling I'll need a few more.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 542
    Also is it essential I cover both sides of the panel?

    I want to put this on it instead

    https://www.studiospares.com/Headphones-and-Speakers/Speaker-Spares-and-Accessories/Acoustic-Cloth-Fabric-1400750mm-Black_258240.htm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-7uZ2bGx4QIVCuR3Ch1SjQS_EAYYASABEgLYq_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    Which does cost more but it will perform better I think, I plan to only cover the front with this and the back with the dust sheet from screwfix. Then mount on the corners of the walls.
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  • Jonathanthomas83Jonathanthomas83 Frets: 2331
    edited April 2
    Musicwolf said:
    Going the DIY route you should be able to build 1200mm x 600mm panels using Rockwool RW3 and Cara fabric for around £25 a piece.  You could build 12 panels (4 RW3 slabs per pack) for the order of £300
    Hi @Musicwolf what shop are you using for those prices? https://www.insulationexpress.co.uk/rockwool-rw3-acoustic-insulation-slabs has them for £319 just for the rockwool. EDIT: Sorry, I put 13 in, not 12, apologies.

    Also, my mate uses RW5...is there any benefit to me using RW3 rather than RW5, which is cheaper on that site? I notice it's less dense? Is that an issue?

    Sorry, I'm no expert. And sorry for crashing the thread.

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  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 390

    Also, my mate uses RW5...is there any benefit to me using RW3 rather than RW5, which is cheaper on that site? I notice it's less dense? Is that an issue?


    RW 5 has a density of 100kg m-3 (vs 60kg m-3 for RW3), it's more dense.

     https://cdn01.rockwool.co.uk/siteassets/rw-uk/literature-downloads/datasheets/rw-slabs.pdf?f=20190315092546

    I've known people use RW45 (45kg m-3), which is less dense.  RW3 will be better, but it's marginal (certainly in a home studio situation).  There should be a big improvement going from nothing to a few, strategically placed, panels be they RW45, 3 or 5.  Combine this with optimum layout for the space (monitors firing down the length of the room etc) should reap rewards.

    People seem very happy to spend money upgrading monitors or buying the latest plug in but resist spending a few hundred quid on acoustic treatment which could bring greater benefits.

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  • Musicwolf said:

    Also, my mate uses RW5...is there any benefit to me using RW3 rather than RW5, which is cheaper on that site? I notice it's less dense? Is that an issue?


    RW 5 has a density of 100kg m-3 (vs 60kg m-3 for RW3), it's more dense.

     https://cdn01.rockwool.co.uk/siteassets/rw-uk/literature-downloads/datasheets/rw-slabs.pdf?f=20190315092546

    I've known people use RW45 (45kg m-3), which is less dense.  RW3 will be better, but it's marginal (certainly in a home studio situation).  There should be a big improvement going from nothing to a few, strategically placed, panels be they RW45, 3 or 5.  Combine this with optimum layout for the space (monitors firing down the length of the room etc) should reap rewards.

    People seem very happy to spend money upgrading monitors or buying the latest plug in but resist spending a few hundred quid on acoustic treatment which could bring greater benefits.

    Thanks @Musicwolf, I agree...money should be spent on this...but it's not new and shiny, unfortunately, and more importantly, has no resale value for the classifieds ;-)

    I'd have thought that the denser the better...so RW5 would be more appropriate. Is that not the case?
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  • WhistlerWhistler Frets: 44
    Also is it essential I cover both sides of the panel?

    I want to put this on it instead

    https://www.studiospares.com/Headphones-and-Speakers/Speaker-Spares-and-Accessories/Acoustic-Cloth-Fabric-1400750mm-Black_258240.htm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-7uZ2bGx4QIVCuR3Ch1SjQS_EAYYASABEgLYq_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    Which does cost more but it will perform better I think, I plan to only cover the front with this and the back with the dust sheet from screwfix. Then mount on the corners of the walls.
    If your traps will be movable then covering both sides will be more practical. If you will mount them permanently in position on walls and ceiling then it is up to you and your budget whether you want to cover the backs.

    The Studiospares cloth will be just as good as the one you found earlier. Both are breathable fabrics; neither will be better nor worse than the other.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 542
    Whistler said:
    Also is it essential I cover both sides of the panel?

    I want to put this on it instead

    https://www.studiospares.com/Headphones-and-Speakers/Speaker-Spares-and-Accessories/Acoustic-Cloth-Fabric-1400750mm-Black_258240.htm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-7uZ2bGx4QIVCuR3Ch1SjQS_EAYYASABEgLYq_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    Which does cost more but it will perform better I think, I plan to only cover the front with this and the back with the dust sheet from screwfix. Then mount on the corners of the walls.
    If your traps will be movable then covering both sides will be more practical. If you will mount them permanently in position on walls and ceiling then it is up to you and your budget whether you want to cover the backs.

    The Studiospares cloth will be just as good as the one you found earlier. Both are breathable fabrics; neither will be better nor worse than the other.
    Yes they will be mounted into the corners with little intention to move unless they don't absorb the sound very well.

    The Nexxia one has more of them in stock, the StudioSpares one only 1. My friend said he'd making them this weekend hopefully so he needs the cloth to staple on it.
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  • RockerRocker Frets: 3345
    Musicwolf said:

    Also, my mate uses RW5...is there any benefit to me using RW3 rather than RW5, which is cheaper on that site? I notice it's less dense? Is that an issue?


    RW 5 has a density of 100kg m-3 (vs 60kg m-3 for RW3), it's more dense.

     https://cdn01.rockwool.co.uk/siteassets/rw-uk/literature-downloads/datasheets/rw-slabs.pdf?f=20190315092546

    I've known people use RW45 (45kg m-3), which is less dense.  RW3 will be better, but it's marginal (certainly in a home studio situation).  There should be a big improvement going from nothing to a few, strategically placed, panels be they RW45, 3 or 5.  Combine this with optimum layout for the space (monitors firing down the length of the room etc) should reap rewards.

    People seem very happy to spend money upgrading monitors or buying the latest plug in but resist spending a few hundred quid on acoustic treatment which could bring greater benefits.


    The word 'could' says it all.  It all seems a lot of work to make up a few of those panels on the offchance [probably very likely] that they will work.

    In the much derided world of hi-fi, there are a lot of products that could improve the sound of your system.  The only way to find out is to try them in your system.  Every hi-fi dealer worth his salt will loan out examples that you can try at home.  Simply bring them back to the shop if they don't do enough.  In actual fact most people buy the items as they do tend to do what the dealer/manufacturer says they do.  Perhaps a similar model could be introduced in the pro-audio room treatment business.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 542
    Whistler said:
    Also is it essential I cover both sides of the panel?

    I want to put this on it instead

    https://www.studiospares.com/Headphones-and-Speakers/Speaker-Spares-and-Accessories/Acoustic-Cloth-Fabric-1400750mm-Black_258240.htm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-7uZ2bGx4QIVCuR3Ch1SjQS_EAYYASABEgLYq_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    Which does cost more but it will perform better I think, I plan to only cover the front with this and the back with the dust sheet from screwfix. Then mount on the corners of the walls.
    If your traps will be movable then covering both sides will be more practical. If you will mount them permanently in position on walls and ceiling then it is up to you and your budget whether you want to cover the backs.

    The Studiospares cloth will be just as good as the one you found earlier. Both are breathable fabrics; neither will be better nor worse than the other.
    Yes they will be mounted into the corners with little intention to move unless they don't absorb the sound very well.

    The Nexxia one has more of them in stock, the StudioSpares one only 1. My friend said he'd making them this weekend hopefully so he needs the cloth to staple on it.
    Went for the grey ones off Nexxia as they're cheaper and had more in stock. StudioSpares will have to backorder it so don't know how long that'd take.
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  • WhistlerWhistler Frets: 44
    Here's looking forward to photos of your room with acoustic traps in place, Lestratcaster.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 542
    Thanks Whistler, I'm probably going to need more than 4 but will update you all once its built and hung up.

    Thanks again to everyone else for suggesting the DIY route, saved a few quid with a mate who's good at making stuff. Hopefully the room will be less echoey.
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4826
    Rocker said:
    Musicwolf said:

    Also, my mate uses RW5...is there any benefit to me using RW3 rather than RW5, which is cheaper on that site? I notice it's less dense? Is that an issue?


    RW 5 has a density of 100kg m-3 (vs 60kg m-3 for RW3), it's more dense.

     https://cdn01.rockwool.co.uk/siteassets/rw-uk/literature-downloads/datasheets/rw-slabs.pdf?f=20190315092546

    I've known people use RW45 (45kg m-3), which is less dense.  RW3 will be better, but it's marginal (certainly in a home studio situation).  There should be a big improvement going from nothing to a few, strategically placed, panels be they RW45, 3 or 5.  Combine this with optimum layout for the space (monitors firing down the length of the room etc) should reap rewards.

    People seem very happy to spend money upgrading monitors or buying the latest plug in but resist spending a few hundred quid on acoustic treatment which could bring greater benefits.


    The word 'could' says it all.  It all seems a lot of work to make up a few of those panels on the offchance [probably very likely] that they will work.

    In the much derided world of hi-fi, there are a lot of products that could improve the sound of your system.  The only way to find out is to try them in your system.  Every hi-fi dealer worth his salt will loan out examples that you can try at home.  Simply bring them back to the shop if they don't do enough.  In actual fact most people buy the items as they do tend to do what the dealer/manufacturer says they do.  Perhaps a similar model could be introduced in the pro-audio room treatment business.
    I dont think its the case, the general advice is based on fairly well understood science and people getting into this will often use a calibrated mic to measure the response before and after treatment, or use these profiles to seek advice on the best next steps. Also unlike the world of pro-audio no-ones making mega-bucks from the advice to go out and spend a couple of hundred quid at B&Q.

    I have 3 small panels in my room which def make a bit of difference but I really need to trap the corners at some point.

    The articles on here are pretty well regarded:

    http://www.acousticsinsider.com/


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  • MusicwolfMusicwolf Frets: 390
    Yes, acoustic treatment is based on science (quite a few HiFi 'improvements' are snake oil). The reason that I said 'could' rather than 'would' is that placement of panels is critical, so just throwing a few panels up at random may not guarantee noticeable improvement.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 542
    So my friend has made the 4 panels, and due to help install them this weekend. Just thinking about how high they should go in the corners, 1200mm height isn't very tall at all, should it be in the middle sorta position where my ears are? One of the corners is where the door is next to the wall so I can't put anything there.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 542
    Or am I better off putting 2 of the panels either side of the window (behind the monitors) and the other 2 on the opposite side also either side of the windows then getting some bass traps (or making diagonal corner type panels) to sit in the corners?
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 542
    I never showed you all the other side of the room where the door is:


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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 22716
    edited April 10
    So my friend has made the 4 panels, and due to help install them this weekend. Just thinking about how high they should go in the corners, 1200mm height isn't very tall at all, should it be in the middle sorta position where my ears are? One of the corners is where the door is next to the wall so I can't put anything there.
    You want to treat where walls meet other walls/ceilings/floors, as bass builds up there.
    You also want to treat early/first reflection points.

    I'm fond of a soft top, hard bottom approach- meaning put some traps up suspended form the ceiling, and get rid of the carpet and put a hard floor down.

    "And what would humans be without love?"
    “RARE, said Death.”

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  • WhistlerWhistler Frets: 44
    Given that you only have 4 panels you cannot do all that octatonic rightly suggests. As you are not a traditional recording studio control room I would suggest you try the four points where sound can travel from your amp(s), bounce straight off one of the walls and return to your ears. It would also be worth trying the traps straddling (ie. at 45°) the 4 corners (which would mean the trap in front of the door having to be moved each time you use the door) to see which sound works best for you.

    Height will be easier: place traps so that they are level with your and your student's ears. Assuming that you sometimes stand and sometimes sit, find the place at which the trap can cover both possibilities.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 542
    I figured I would need more than 4 but as they will be mounted on the walls via some wood panels screwed into the garage wall it'd make re-positioning a hassle hence why I wanted to get them where they need to be first time. My original plan was to place 2 in the far 2 corners of the monitor side, and the other 2 either side of the window where the door is. 

    Then get another few panels made up, put 2 behind the monitors either side of the back window, one on the far corner where the front door is and some others along the longer walls either side.

    Otherwise I'd be putting the 4 made up already either side of each window on opposite sides of the room and saving the corners for 2 bass traps.
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  • WhistlerWhistler Frets: 44
    edited April 10
    The thing is that you are not in a textbook scenario so you really do need to try the traps on 4 walls, then in 4 corners and then as per your plan to hear which sounds better to you. Stack your traps on chairs, tables, step ladders or get some mates round to help.

    One more thing: I know you have said before that you only want to use one half of the room but looking at this photo (below) you posted you would get a much better, more balanced sound if you slid your desk and monitors about 2 metres to the right, so the desk is centred under the window and the monitors are either side of the window, as close to the wall as you can get them (to avoid speaker boundary interference response - see here for more on that if you are interested). As you are at the moment the left monitor is likely to be producing a stonger bass signal (up to 12dB stronger).

    At the end of the day, it is your room and your choice what you do. If we can steer you away from problems and towards a pleasant, more balanced sound and one that doesn't fatigue you if you are playing music in the room for extended periods, then great.


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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 542
    edited April 11
    Yeah I will probably make another 6 to put on all the walls. Been looking at sofa's today too and saw a nice 2 seater for £185. Big struggle will be to get it in the 70cm doorway though!

    Also my desk position has changed (see recent photos) its now at the far back window side so the monitors face the length of the room.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 542
    Right, mate came round yesterday to put the 4 panels up to start off with. He said we can make slightly narrower ones for the corners so we just put them up either side of the window behind the monitors, and one on the other side of the room:





    We're planning to make another 4 of the same ones we put in, then 3 for the corners, at 300mm wide. Then on the other side of the above window (by the door) cos of the fusebox and electrical wiring that might be behind it we'll make a custom 1200 x 400mm size panel and glue it in.

    Am I better off getting 2 x bass traps for the 3 corners or should our 300 mm wide ones with 100 rockwool inside be enough?
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 542
    Just an update I had the other 8 panels fitted on Friday:



    This is the side by the door where the fusebox is:



    We actually used 2 slabs of wood hold the one in the corner as it was very tricky to mount it without touching any wiring. Works though.

    There's little to no echo now in the room compared to when I first moved in. The only other area where I may treat is by the door, so I may make another one with wooden legs so I can move it for people to get in. Pleased with how these (now) 12 are working out though!
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  • Jonathanthomas83Jonathanthomas83 Frets: 2331
    @Lestratcaster looks nice. How are you finding the bass where the walls meet the floor/ceiling? Are you likely to treat those ares?
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 542
    Its not too bad, though looking back I probably should have built a taller (longer) panel to cover the whole distance of the corner. There's still a bit of furniture I need to get too as its very airy (alot of space) as well.
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  • Jonathanthomas83Jonathanthomas83 Frets: 2331
    Yeah that makes sense, mate. That's the advice I've been given too, cover the entire corner from floor to ceiling.
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  • LestratcasterLestratcaster Frets: 542
    I was gonna get the GIK bass traps but figured they wouldn't fit snugly into the corner without touching the other panels. It sounds a lot better now the walls have been covered with something so I'll run with it for a bit.
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