Having trouble with learning lead styles

TTBZ

Dominic said:

It's far harder to play GOOD rhythm guitar than lead .
To master inversions , suspensions , substitutions and partial chords over other chords with commonality  is a skilled art.
 I.E. -A Tune has 12 continuous bars of E7 
 Basic player simply plays 12 bars of a root position E7
 Skilled player can fit in 8 chords in that space that all suggest E7 but sound interesting and textured by using the above or a suspension like Bm9  etc etc

Do you have any good links to where I can learn about all these inversions, suspensions, substitutions and partial chords? I've somehow made it almost 20yrs into playing without learning any of this and really feel like I need to! I'm definitely what you'd call a basic player in that regard.  I blame my old teacher  

TINMAN82

TTBZ said:

Dominic said:

It's far harder to play GOOD rhythm guitar than lead .
To master inversions , suspensions , substitutions and partial chords over other chords with commonality  is a skilled art.
 I.E. -A Tune has 12 continuous bars of E7 
 Basic player simply plays 12 bars of a root position E7
 Skilled player can fit in 8 chords in that space that all suggest E7 but sound interesting and textured by using the above or a suspension like Bm9  etc etc

Do you have any good links to where I can learn about all these inversions, suspensions, substitutions and partial chords? I've somehow made it almost 20yrs into playing without learning any of this and really feel like I need to! I'm definitely what you'd call a basic player in that regard.  I blame my old teacher  

I’ll second this question. I’ve reached an intermediate level of technical playing by learning songs by rote. All the chords I know were learned from songs but I don’t really understand them or the notes that make them up other than where the root is. As such, I can’t work inversions out and “chordal theory”/ “chord tone soloing” is a mystery to me. All I know how to do is memorise stuff. Where to start?!

thegummy

Dominic said:

It's far harder to play GOOD rhythm guitar than lead .
To master inversions , suspensions , substitutions and partial chords over other chords with commonality  is a skilled art.
 I.E. -A Tune has 12 continuous bars of E7 
 Basic player simply plays 12 bars of a root position E7
 Skilled player can fit in 8 chords in that space that all suggest E7 but sound interesting and textured by using the above or a suspension like Bm9  etc etc

Harder than playing GOOD lead? I'd have to disagree with that and say both are equally hard to play to a very high level.

Similarly, a lot of people think bass is easier than guitar but really it's easy to learn the basics of both and it takes even the most gifted people a lifetime to master either.

thegummy

TINMAN82 said:

TTBZ said:

Dominic said:

It's far harder to play GOOD rhythm guitar than lead .
To master inversions , suspensions , substitutions and partial chords over other chords with commonality  is a skilled art.
 I.E. -A Tune has 12 continuous bars of E7 
 Basic player simply plays 12 bars of a root position E7
 Skilled player can fit in 8 chords in that space that all suggest E7 but sound interesting and textured by using the above or a suspension like Bm9  etc etc

Do you have any good links to where I can learn about all these inversions, suspensions, substitutions and partial chords? I've somehow made it almost 20yrs into playing without learning any of this and really feel like I need to! I'm definitely what you'd call a basic player in that regard.  I blame my old teacher  

I’ll second this question. I’ve reached an intermediate level of technical playing by learning songs by rote. All the chords I know were learned from songs but I don’t really understand them or the notes that make them up other than where the root is. As such, I can’t work inversions out and “chordal theory”/ “chord tone soloing” is a mystery to me. All I know how to do is memorise stuff. Where to start?!

A combination of general music theory (not guitar specific) and learning which positions of the fretboard are which notes.

I think a lot of guitar-specific material focuses on shapes but if you take the guitar out of it and just learn general music theory it will be more about the notes etc.

When I got in to guitar I had already been in to music theory through playing keyboard and I felt it was a big advantage. A lot of it was learning the notes on the fretboard and using my existing knowledge to put them together.

I'm far from being one myself but I think that something a lot of top level rhythm players do is play some notes from chords, or even all the notes but on 3 strings instead of 6 (chords rarely have 6 different notes, when played on all 6 strings on a guitar, some notes are repeated), rather than play the whole bar chord like a beginner would.

tralfamadan

TINMAN82 said:

TTBZ said:

Dominic said:

It's far harder to play GOOD rhythm guitar than lead .
To master inversions , suspensions , substitutions and partial chords over other chords with commonality  is a skilled art.
 I.E. -A Tune has 12 continuous bars of E7 
 Basic player simply plays 12 bars of a root position E7
 Skilled player can fit in 8 chords in that space that all suggest E7 but sound interesting and textured by using the above or a suspension like Bm9  etc etc

Do you have any good links to where I can learn about all these inversions, suspensions, substitutions and partial chords? I've somehow made it almost 20yrs into playing without learning any of this and really feel like I need to! I'm definitely what you'd call a basic player in that regard.  I blame my old teacher  

I’ll second this question. I’ve reached an intermediate level of technical playing by learning songs by rote. All the chords I know were learned from songs but I don’t really understand them or the notes that make them up other than where the root is. As such, I can’t work inversions out and “chordal theory”/ “chord tone soloing” is a mystery to me. All I know how to do is memorise stuff. Where to start?!

I searched for answers to this question for a long time. If I had to point at one, single thing that provided me the biggest gains to theory and technical playing then without a doubt it would be learning Jazz arpeggios.

I don't think you necessarily have to memorize them but understanding how to construct them nicely bridges the gap between Chords and Scales. Even if you don't intend on playing jazz (why not!?) major/minor dominant 7 arpeggios can be used in lots of genres.

tralfamadan

TINMAN82 said:

TTBZ said:

Dominic said:

It's far harder to play GOOD rhythm guitar than lead .
To master inversions , suspensions , substitutions and partial chords over other chords with commonality  is a skilled art.
 I.E. -A Tune has 12 continuous bars of E7 
 Basic player simply plays 12 bars of a root position E7
 Skilled player can fit in 8 chords in that space that all suggest E7 but sound interesting and textured by using the above or a suspension like Bm9  etc etc

Do you have any good links to where I can learn about all these inversions, suspensions, substitutions and partial chords? I've somehow made it almost 20yrs into playing without learning any of this and really feel like I need to! I'm definitely what you'd call a basic player in that regard.  I blame my old teacher  

I’ll second this question. I’ve reached an intermediate level of technical playing by learning songs by rote. All the chords I know were learned from songs but I don’t really understand them or the notes that make them up other than where the root is. As such, I can’t work inversions out and “chordal theory”/ “chord tone soloing” is a mystery to me. All I know how to do is memorise stuff. Where to start?!

I searched for answers to this question for a long time. If I had to point at one, single thing that provided me the biggest gains to theory and technical playing then without a doubt it would be learning Jazz arpeggios.

I don't think you necessarily have to memorize them but understanding how to construct them nicely bridges the gap between Chords and Scales. Even if you don't intend on playing jazz (why not!?) major/minor dominant 7 arpeggios can be used in lots of genres.

Modellista

As a way of learning more about chords, it might be useful to consider @Dominic 's idea of trying some more advanced rhythm chords over blues changes.

Let's imagine a blues in Cm.  To start with, there's four bars of Cm, which you could simply play:

Cm          x35543

Or you could decide to be a bit more adventurous and try the classic "blues shuffle" (or Status Quo chords!), which are generally played as power chords changing between 5ths, 6ths, and 7ths:

C5          x35xxx
C6          x37xxx
C7          x38xxx (bit of a stretch this one!)
C6          x37xxx

Play two chords to the bar, repeat that twice and you've got the first four bars of a 12-bar blues.

If you didn't fancy the stretch for C7, play a C7 triad:

C5          x35xxx
C6          x37xxx
C7          x353xx
C6          x37xxx

But what if we wanted to play whole chords instead of just diads?  Also I quite fancy reversing the 6th and 7th chords:

Cm          x35543
Cm7         x35343
Cm6         x37343
Cm7         x35343

The eagle-eyed might have noticed that what we're doing is moving around the C octave note, which starts on G string fret 5, then becomes a Bb on G string fret 3, then becomes an A on D string fret 7, then reverses back.  This gives a sense of movement in the chords, whilst still remaining Cm.

With me so far?

How about instead of repeating the same thing twice, we use the same trick of moving the C note, but this time upwards?  I would suggest:

Cm          x35543
C7sus2      x35333
C7sus4      x35363
C7sus2(2)   x35336

Note the 2 version of C7sus2 - this adds a 7th on the top string which leads nicely into the next chord because it is the 4th of F, which begs to be resolved to the 3rd.

Hopefully some of this makes sense, and may be some help to those who are looking for some guidance of how to spice up their rhythm playing.  Obviously this is just scratching the surface.  If everyone gets this we could look at how to continue the progression into F.

Dominic

cool beans

guitars4you

Repeat many of those comments from above about chords + inversions - With a good knowledge, (note good and not a full blown professors knowledge), you can improve your blues playing so much - For both solos and rhythm work - Learn variations of triads and double notes and incorporate both into lead licks + rhythm work - SRV did this so much - Robben Ford has mastered it

For example in E - With variations of a 6th, 7th + 9th you can effectively play a whole scale from open position to 12th fret - So on the Top E you'll move from open, to 2nd, 4th (passing note 5th) , 7th, 9th, 10th + 12th fret - Learn to move from all of these with ease  make chord melody grooves etc

so play  in part chord or full chord -  x22100   -  x22122  - xx2434  - passing note 5th fret top E string  - x76777 - xxx999 - xxx99 10  -  xx12 11 9 12  also include xx6757 - all these are a form of E7 E6 or E9 - So effectively any one of these chords can be played over E7 

ref above x22122 many just play this as a passing chord as xx2222
 
also great for jazz/blues/rock n roll - shown in E but move as required  xxx 13 14 12  same shape slide to  xxx11 12 10  then xxx999 same shape slide to  xxx777   then  xxx654 then same shape slide to xxx432 - All again are based around E dominant 7 chords

ref above slide up or down from fret above or below  - loads of options

Break down any of the above into double note chords + licks as required

Then add chords to pentatonic licks/notes/ to embellish

No rocket science to the above - just learn to use it

Then learn to do the same in other keys as required

Modellista

^ some good chords there!

For ease of my thinking hope you don't mind if I put some names next to them:

E          022100
E6add9     022122
E7         xx2434
E9         x76777
E6         xxx999
E7         xxx99.10 
E9         xx12.11.9.12 <- really cool inversion I've not come across before
E7         xx6757                  
E6         xxx13.14.12             
E9         xxx11.12.10
E6         xxx654
E9         xxx432

What I really like about these is they're familiar shapes - the last four are descending E6s and 9s, but are also the top three strings of Dm and Am chord shapes.  But play them with the top notes E, D, G# and F# (an E9 arpeggio in itself), and they become cool chords over E.  Tasty.

darthed1981

Rather enjoying this thread.

Partly because it's interesting and partly because I'm relieved it all makes sense to me!

TTBZ

Thanks for the info chaps, I'll sit down with my guitar and try it out any further reading or video lessons I could check out? Sorry for the slight hijack!

guitars4you

Modellista said:

^ some good chords there!

For ease of my thinking hope you don't mind if I put some names next to them:

E          022100
E6add9     022122
E7         xx2434
E9         x76777
E6         xxx999
E7         xxx99.10 
E9         xx12.11.9.12 <- really cool inversion I've not come across before
E7         xx6757                  
E6         xxx13.14.12             
E9         xxx11.12.10
E6         xxx654
E9         xxx432

What I really like about these is they're familiar shapes - the last four are descending E6s and 9s, but are also the top three strings of Dm and Am chord shapes.  But play them with the top notes E, D, G# and F# (an E9 arpeggio in itself), and they become cool chords over E.  Tasty.

glad you've done it this way and glad you've added the names - I might have known what they are but forgotten

That 12th fret E9 you mentioned as a 'really cool inversion' has SRV all over it - play it against the low E as well

Ref above - can make great melodic jazz/blues intros with them - Or use them as rhythm only or rhythm with lead - put an E7 loop on, then experiment with them - Then work out in A7 plus B7 as well etc if required

As you say - familiar and easy shapes - Makes you sound better than you are with out actually doing anything fancy

Thanks for additional info + help with layout

Modellista

^ hey no worries, you've taught me something today!

I think what you've proven is that a working knowledge of 7ths, 9ths, and 6ths (probably in that order), and then inverting them, is a really strong tool to play some world-class rhythm and lead work.  In fact I've been known to say the ultimate goal of guitar playing is to blur the line between rhythm and lead playing so it's just guitar playing.  All the greats did it - Hendrix, SRV, Marr... and once you break it down into the constituent parts, it's not magic, just, dare I say, common sense?

Dominic

............and then some more sophisticated passing chords...............all in good time Grasshopper

guitars4you

Modellista said:

^ hey no worries, you've taught me something today!

I think what you've proven is that a working knowledge of 7ths, 9ths, and 6ths (probably in that order), and then inverting them, is a really strong tool to play some world-class rhythm and lead work.  In fact I've been known to say the ultimate goal of guitar playing is to blur the line between rhythm and lead playing so it's just guitar playing.  All the greats did it - Hendrix, SRV, Marr... and once you break it down into the constituent parts, it's not magic, just, dare I say, common sense?

I don't have enough time to seriously practice + study - I don't understand it if it gets to technical - So what I like is to learn something that I can instantly use, understand and can slot on top of what I'm already doing, so as to further embellish where I am - If I can remember and use such ideas the following morning, then that is my progress - I don't want to build a rocket - I just want to improve my bike - Does that make sense ? - Those chord ideas just do that for me

Horn players use them all the time - guys like Setzer use them all the time - I hear them in rock n roll, swing, some jazz and some blues 

I understand them - I just wish I could make better use of them - Glad they have helped you

thegummy

Modellista said:

^ hey no worries, you've taught me something today!

I think what you've proven is that a working knowledge of 7ths, 9ths, and 6ths (probably in that order), and then inverting them, is a really strong tool to play some world-class rhythm and lead work.  In fact I've been known to say the ultimate goal of guitar playing is to blur the line between rhythm and lead playing so it's just guitar playing.  All the greats did it - Hendrix, SRV, Marr... and once you break it down into the constituent parts, it's not magic, just, dare I say, common sense?

I was thinking about this thread in work earlier and the blurring of the lines is exactly what I was thinking about.

John Mayer is a good example, when he's playing licks in between the lines he's singing it could be called lead but even when he's singing he's rarely, if ever, just strumming chords, it's all fairly intricate and great sounding.

Amazes me that someone can play those parts so well by themselves, never mind while singing.

What a guy. So handsome too...

guitarcookie1

I used to think that chords were boring, until I started playing with other people, now I get just as much satisfaction from getting the chords played right as I do playing lead.