Blackstar ID Core new amps - updated now with NAD celebrations!

ICBM

Grumpyrocker said:

If I was using a Line6 UX1 I would use that to both monitor, record and playback - I could use speakers connected to it or headphones. Either way I could have my own playing, the monitored signal and the playback all at the same volume.

If I was using my Presonus Audiobox V22 I could do the same.

If I was using my POD HD 500 I could do the same.

If I was using my Zoom G3 I could do the same.

Using the Blackstar ID Core - I can't. 

Yes there are workarounds, but all the above devices get this right so one doesn't have to. And why should I have to use another device to get the best out of this one? Until the levels are sorted USB recording with the ID Core is a pain. Though one could still use the emulated output for recording - but one then misses out on the usual features of having an audio interface.

Some people might buy an ID Core amp as their only way of doing USB recording. And they'd soon discover that the difference in levels between performance, recording and playback made it a real pain in the arse.

OK.

I still might give it a go though - when I'm recording I prefer to monitor everything through the computer if I can, so as long as the amp doesn't make any sound it wouldn't be a problem. I have a G3 but I haven't quite got to grips with it, I'm just not that keen on the sound. (Which is a surprise, since I love my B3 bass one.)

Grumpyrocker

G3 is also only 16-bit which is why I tend to use my other audio interfaces for recording.

I've no doubt Blackstar will fix this in firmware. Just seems an odd oversight. All it needs is an option in the Insider software to set recording level. Or they could get off their arse and write their own ASIO driver instead of relying on ASIO4ALL.

imalone

Grumpyrocker said:

G3 is also only 16-bit which is why I tend to use my other audio interfaces for recording.

I've no doubt Blackstar will fix this in firmware. Just seems an odd oversight. All it needs is an option in the Insider software to set recording level. Or they could get off their arse and write their own ASIO driver instead of relying on ASIO4ALL.

ASIO4ALL doesn't really deal with the volume and I don't think it's the problem. For comparison, the Mustang also uses a modified ASIO4ALL, and intially didn't have a USB volume control (but it was just fixed, not tied to the amp master volume). Later firmware added a USB level control on the preset which set it at the amp. What I wonder about the ID series is whether the USB feed is taking it from the analogue output signal after volume. If that's the case then even if you could fake level control in firmware you still couldn't get a signal when fully muted, which you can with the mustang.

Grumpyrocker

I know ASIO4ALL isn't the problem. What I was referring to is the ASIO software one gets with devices such as the Presonus Audiobox and Line UX1 - where in addition to setting buffers and the like - the user can also alter recording levels. Hence my wish for either a similar Blackstar approach or something in the Insider Software. Either way it's exactly the same thing - just whether it's part of one window or a separate one, it's not really the issue.

I think it's more likely the USB feed from the Blackstar is before the master volume. Before it becomes analog, it makes more sense for it to be while the signal chain is still digital or it would require another AD conversion. I suspect that we'll get USB level added at a later date - the first version of the firmware just being simplistic to get it out of the door.

ecc83

Grumpyrocker said:

G3 is also only 16-bit which is why I tend to use my other audio interfaces for recording.

I've no doubt Blackstar will fix this in firmware. Just seems an odd oversight. All it needs is an option in the Insider software to set recording level. Or they could get off their arse and write their own ASIO driver instead of relying on ASIO4ALL.

Hmm? P'raps I'll wait UNTIL Crimble to get one! ASIO4ALL was a fair "get out of jail card" for certain things but it has surely had its day?

Dave.

Grumpyrocker

I was surprised to see it being used in an official Blackstar vid that's for sure. 

imalone

Grumpyrocker said:

I know ASIO4ALL isn't the problem. What I was referring to is the ASIO software one gets with devices such as the Presonus Audiobox and Line UX1 - where in addition to setting buffers and the like - the user can also alter recording levels. Hence my wish for either a similar Blackstar approach or something in the Insider Software. Either way it's exactly the same thing - just whether it's part of one window or a separate one, it's not really the issue.

I think it's more likely the USB feed from the Blackstar is before the master volume. Before it becomes analog, it makes more sense for it to be while the signal chain is still digital or it would require another AD conversion. I suspect that we'll get USB level added at a later date - the first version of the firmware just being simplistic to get it out of the door.

Makes more sense, but so would not having the master volume control the USB It's possible it might do it to get genuinely what's coming out of the power amp, but maybe less likely since with full range speakers it'll probably be fully emulated anyway.
Altering recording levels in software is nice, but it wouldn't fix the fundamental problem anyway (you'd have to compensate any changes to the amp master, and at low levels you'd be amplifying in software, not good).

ecc83

In win7 (dunno about hated eight) you can set the level of simple USB audio devices  but generally the default setting is 100% which is a pity!

I have answered problems about this quite often on forums because things like basic USB mixers are very noisy and  need the level cranked back to 5% or even less.

Dave.

monquixote

Grumpyrocker said:

G3 is also only 16-bit which is why I tend to use my other audio interfaces for recording.

I've no doubt Blackstar will fix this in firmware. Just seems an odd oversight. All it needs is an option in the Insider software to set recording level. Or they could get off their arse and write their own ASIO driver instead of relying on ASIO4ALL.

I wouldn't let that stop you. 

Guitars don't have anywhere near the dynamic range for 16 bit recording to be a problem.

Grumpyrocker

I prefer to use 24-bit via my audio interface. It's got nothing to do with using a guitar - it's to do with the noise floor and having the resolution to play around with things.

It's like doing photoshop work on a RAW file rather than starting with a JPG.

I do use the G3. Was merely pointing out where it falls down as an audio interface compared to many others.

monquixote

As long as you set your levels properly it's not going to be a problem. 

ecc83

monquixote said:

As long as you set your levels properly it's not going to be a problem. 

Quite. 24bit operation only confers a lower noise floor. So low in fact that it is the analogue path that dictates it. Middle of the road but good AIs such as my Ka6 or the Focusrite 8i6 can manage a noise floor a little better than -100dBFS. The very best gear will beat that up to 20dB.

24 bits (or 96kHz) does not give any greater "resolution". A bit is still a bit and that is worth ~6dB anywhere!

IF the analogue path is quiet enough, for instance my Allen & Heath ZED10 mixer, using 16 bits gives no DR disadvantage since I would never get my mics/room quiet enough for it to matter! Sadly, many cheap usb audio devices are NOT quiet enough and either hiss or generate artifacts. Often the noises are only present in the monitoring path but it ain't good!

The big advantage of 24bits (when the system is analogue quiet enough) is that you can drop the average recording level down to -20dBFS and enjoy a virtually "hands free" recording experience without fear of noise or clipping.

I have no idea whether the Core amps are 16 or 24 bits but if the basic system is quiet it won't matter. If not, shame on them!

Dave.

Grumpyrocker

I'm not sure whether the Core is 16 or 24. Not really bothered - I'd be happy to use it if they sorted out the volume. The tone is so good it's a no-brainer for recording. Will likely give it a go from the emulated out into my audio interface and see how I get on.

DartmoorHedgehog

I had a quick go with an ID Core 10 in Hartnoll's this afternoon - I could do with a little practice amp with a line in for quiet hassle-free practice.  Very impressive for the price - I may well buy one soon I think.

DartmoorHedgehog

Hmm... I was back in town today and just "happened" to walk past Hartnolls again - and came out with an ID Core 10.  The specs are identical apart from the power and size of case, so the smallest fits my requirements best.  Sounds really good at sensible late-evening practice volume (and the stereo effects are incredible), and much less hassle and guilt-ridden than using my big amp in the evening.  An excellent little bit of kit

dhaywood67

Just out of interest do the 20W and 40W version need to be played louder to sound good or do the full range speakers cancel that need?

thecolourbox

Ive not found the need to play the 10 louder to improve the sound, other than just because it rocks to play loud

Grumpyrocker

dhaywood67 said:

Just out of interest do the 20W and 40W version need to be played louder to sound good or do the full range speakers cancel that need?

It's just like turning up a stereo. The volume control doesn't really interact with the modelled tone. So great sound at any volume.

dhaywood67

That's what I was hoping for. I didn't want the normal guitar amp situation where the speakers need working to get the tone.

Thanks for the quick replies

DartmoorHedgehog

With my 10 watt one it's the opposite - it sounds better quieter (which is what I want from it really).  The speakers are so piddly that 5W per channel is really massive overkill - anything approaching half volume just starts to sound nasty and harsh (and way louder than I want it for my purposes anyway).  But quiet it sounds really really good.  I don't know if the 20 and 40 have bigger speakers so they'd sound better louder than the 10.