Is tone in your hands or equipments?

Philtre

Fretwired said:

take delays away from the Edge and you'd get ........

...Close to the Edge....

Down by a river,
Not right away, not right away...

ICBM

John_A said:

Care to explain?

The entire discussion is about the literal meaning of tone .

skaguitar

Fretwired said:

skaguitar said:

I believe it’s 80% player 10% equipment and 10% environment 

OK. Give a Tele and a Roland Jazz Chorus to Steve Vai and get him to play for the Love of God. He could do it, but it wouldn't sound how you'd expect and if you heard the audio you'd probably laugh. The same goes for most metal players ... equipment counts for far more than 10%. David Gilmore has said as much .. his signature tone requires some serious gear.

These days gear is important - take delays away from the Edge and you'd get ........

The fingers argument dates from the days of the blues and was valid .. nobody sounds like Peter Green, BB King etc but then they were mostly guitar into a slightly driven amp.

I've never listened to Steve Vai and wouldn't recognise the song you're talking about if it was played by him or anyone else so I can't comment on your illustration..what I will say though is the the 10% equipment I talk about would be the type of guitar and amp used, and I still believe that 80% of the tone a player gets comes from the player. I think Gilmour would still sound like Gilmour through  a fender strat  and whatever amp he uses with no effects. Just my humble opinion. I also date from the days of the blues.

John_A

ICBM said:

John_A said:

Care to explain?

The entire discussion is about the literal meaning of tone .

I was having my own sub discussion;)

Fretwired

skaguitar said:

I've never listened to Steve Vai and wouldn't recognise the song you're talking about if it was played by him or anyone else so I can't comment on your illustration..what I will say though is the the 10% equipment I talk about would be the type of guitar and amp used, and I still believe that 80% of the tone a player gets comes from the player. I think Gilmour would still sound like Gilmour through  a fender strat  and whatever amp he uses with no effects. Just my humble opinion. I also date from the days of the blues.

It depends on the player .. go to YouTube and watch a video where The Edge switches off his effects for a laugh and his riffs don't work. Effects are integral to his sound - his technique has developed to exploit this. The same with Gilmore - he has said this numerous times which is why he is a gear whore. Gilmore has a great technique which is why he tops guitar polls.

If you are a bedroom player who practices once in a blue moon no amount of gear will make you sound good - gear won't mask a poor technique. But if you check out the boys at Andertons they get pretty close with their sound like videos. It helps that Rabea Massaad is a top player, but it shows how important gear is for certain players like The Edge and Gilmore.

So I'd say in many cases gear is far more than 10%.

skaguitar

Fretwired said:

skaguitar said:

I've never listened to Steve Vai and wouldn't recognise the song you're talking about if it was played by him or anyone else so I can't comment on your illustration..what I will say though is the the 10% equipment I talk about would be the type of guitar and amp used, and I still believe that 80% of the tone a player gets comes from the player. I think Gilmour would still sound like Gilmour through  a fender strat  and whatever amp he uses with no effects. Just my humble opinion. I also date from the days of the blues.

It depends on the player .. go to YouTube and watch a video where The Edge switches off his effects for a laugh and his riffs don't work. Effects are integral to his sound - his technique has developed to exploit this. The same with Gilmore - he has said this numerous times which is why he is a gear whore. Gilmore has a great technique which is why he tops guitar polls.

If you are a bedroom player who practices once in a blue moon no amount of gear will make you sound good - gear won't mask a poor technique. But if you check out the boys at Andertons they get pretty close with their sound like videos. It helps that Rabea Massaad is a top player, but it shows how important gear is for certain players like The Edge and Gilmore.

So I'd say in many cases gear is far more than 10%.

I'm not convinced so I'll stick with my 10% and we can agree to disagree

ICBM

skaguitar said:

I've never listened to Steve Vai and wouldn't recognise the song you're talking about if it was played by him or anyone else so I can't comment on your illustration..

Don't worry, you only have to listen to the first few seconds to get the idea .



Now try to get that tone with a Strat and a Twin .

skaguitar

ICBM said:

skaguitar said:

I've never listened to Steve Vai and wouldn't recognise the song you're talking about if it was played by him or anyone else so I can't comment on your illustration..

Don't worry, you only have to listen to the first few seconds to get the idea .



Now try to get that tone with a Strat and a Twin .

Now I know why I’ve never listened to Vai..!!
still ...strat 3% twin 3% distortion pedal 4% Vai 80% environment 10% ....job done

DrJazzTap

It's the chicken and egg question again. Vai couldn't pull off crazy divebombs on a bog standard Tele. But he would still sound like vai. I personally think that gear helps you realise the idea.
 I don't fuss over pickups , plectrums or strings as that's rabbit hole stuff. And id go bonkers over it.
If you have shit vibrato you'll always have shit vibrato (providing the guitar is reasonably set up) buying a custom shop strat is not going to magically cure that.

If the sound in your head is a dual rec and a downtuned guitar then a princeton and a gretsch might not be for you.

KrisGee

ICBM said:

skaguitar said:

I've never listened to Steve Vai and wouldn't recognise the song you're talking about if it was played by him or anyone else so I can't comment on your illustration..

Don't worry, you only have to listen to the first few seconds to get the idea .



Now try to get that tone with a Strat and a Twin .

He wouldn't sound like on the record but he would still sound like Steve Vai. If you get what I mean

roberty

Philtre said:

Fretwired said:

take delays away from the Edge and you'd get ........

...Close to the Edge....

Down by a river,
Not right away, not right away...

Doesn't have to be a memory man into an AC30 though. I'm sure he could pull it off with a DD-3 into an jazz chorus or whatever. A lot of it is how you dial it in - does that count as fingers?

grungebob

It doesn’t matter. If what I hear musically didn’t appeal to me it doesn’t matter if the tone is good or bad likewise if I like what I hear it’s not because of the tone. 

ICBM

KrisGee said:

He wouldn't sound like on the record but he would still sound like Steve Vai. If you get what I mean

Yes, I do get entirely what you mean .  It’s because as guitarists, we recognise all the quirks of playing technique as well as the actual sound.

Like the clip of Mick Ronson above, there’s a brilliant bit in the recent documentary about the Eagles where Joe Walsh plays Life In The Fast Lane on an acoustic 12-string - and it sounds exactly like the record! Except that objectively, it doesn’t... it sounds like an acoustic 12-string and not like an overdriven Les Paul. But what you hear is how he plays it, so it locks in to what you’re familiar with and you think it sounds more like it than it really does.

imalrightjack

Well, I have decent gear and I am a decent player (no arguments, thank you).  But I still sound pretty good on a crap guitar and amp.  I've put my gear into the hands of friends who aren't very good and they still don't sound very good.

I've always thought the one thing I am good at is creating a feeling or expressing something - and that doesn't come from the instrument, although having a nice guitar and good tone massively facilitates this, rather than fighting against a crap instrument.

Sassafras

There was scientific research carried out at the University of Minnesota in 1998 that proved conclusively that gear accounted for 26.32% of tone.

John_A

roberty said:

Philtre said:

Fretwired said:

take delays away from the Edge and you'd get ........

...Close to the Edge....

Down by a river,
Not right away, not right away...

Doesn't have to be a memory man into an AC30 though. I'm sure he could pull it off with a DD-3 into an jazz chorus or whatever. A lot of it is how you dial it in - does that count as fingers?

A lot of Edges sound is the man himself, I’ve heard lots of people, with all the gear that get close but not quite there

Philly_Q

Well it's not in my hands, unfortunately.  If it was I must've accidentally washed it off.

John_A

ICBM said:

skaguitar said:

I've never listened to Steve Vai and wouldn't recognise the song you're talking about if it was played by him or anyone else so I can't comment on your illustration..

Don't worry, you only have to listen to the first few seconds to get the idea .



Now try to get that tone with a Strat and a Twin .

Still think you are missing the point.  It’s not the fact that Steve Vai couldn’t make it sound like that with a strat and a twin, it’s the fact that Joe average couldn’t get it with a Carvin Legacy, ds1 and a Jem 

DaevidJ

Isn't this more about style and how you play... I have noticed differences between how a fellow guitarist and myself play guitar in terms of feel and nuance. We each have our own voice

ICBM

John_A said:

Still think you are missing the point.  It’s not the fact that Steve Vai couldn’t make it sound like that with a strat and a twin, it’s the fact that Joe average couldn’t get it with a Carvin Legacy, ds1 and a Jem 

They'd get the tone, or very close - just not be able to play it like him.

Listen to the video in the OP again. The kids all do sound slightly different from each other when they're playing the Strat, because the actual tone *is* dependent on the player to some extent, when you hear it clean. Less so on the Les Paul, and they all pretty much sound exactly the same on the ESP... and completely different from the Strat.

The *tone* is mostly in the gear. The technique is in the player.