DC Resistance

thegummy

It's often said that it's wrong to see DC Resistance as a measure of how hot a pickup is.

Are people who say they being slightly pedantic and saying that other things have a slight effect or is it really no measure and, e.g. an 8k alnico v Strat pickup could be just as hot as a different model that's a 14k alnico v Strat pickup?

Danielsguitars

I've been told it's how many winds that are important not the readings which surprised me, it can change with temperature apparently 

Funkfingers

Ash of Oil City Pickups and Alex of Alegree have both attempted to explain this on numerous occasions.

Bear with me. I’ll post a link to some of those old Discussions. 

ICBM

DC resistance is a crude indicator of output and tone if all other factors are similar, but by itself it's not a good guide to either.

Danielsguitars said:

I've been told it's how many winds that are important not the readings which surprised me, it can change with temperature apparently 

Basically, the output is determined by a combination of the number of turns in the coil and the strength of the magnetic field. If you wound a pickup with the exact same number of turns of a much smaller wire gauge, the DC resistance would be a lot higher but the output would be the same. (Although the tone would also be slightly different due to the different coil geometry.) If you used a less powerful magnet as well you would then get *less* output, even though the DC resistance is higher.

And yes, the wire resistance does change a little with temperature, although not that much.

jellybelly

*Anecdote alert - not actual science!*

I’ve found its as much a matter of frequency range as it is output - lower resistance seems to result in a lower output but increased clarity and more top and bottom end. In my experience this means distortion and fuzz pedals can do their job better and you might actually get more gain before you get to the point of being mushy and undefined. 

Also, in my experience the size of the coil seems to affect headroom too. For example Jazzmaster pickups seem to have loads of ‘headroom’ even when you dig in hard whereas a Strat/Tele/Jaguar kind of limits and compresses more easily. 

So yeah, beyond how midrangey/loud it’ll be compared to other similar pickups it’s not the be all and end all in my (uneducated) experience!

Danny1969

jellybelly said:

*Anecdote alert - not actual science!*

I’ve found its as much a matter of frequency range as it is output - lower resistance seems to result in a lower output but increased clarity and more top and bottom end. In my experience this means distortion and fuzz pedals can do their job better and you might actually get more gain before you get to the point of being mushy and undefined. 

Also, in my experience the size of the coil seems to affect headroom too. For example Jazzmaster pickups seem to have loads ‘headroom’ even when you dig in hard whereas a Street/tele/Jaguar kind of limits and compresses more easily. 

So yeah, beyond how midrangey/loud it’ll be compared to other similar pickups it’s not the be all and end all in my (uneducated) experience!

Well there is science in that, a pickup is basically an inductor ... an inductor offers a higher resistance (reactance) to higher treble frequencies than it does to low (bass) frequencies. So less windings more treble I would have thought. There's probably a tiny amount of capacitance as well which will increase with more coils of larger surface area

ICBM

The capacitance is actually fairly significant and is one reason larger, flatter coils are brighter than taller, narrower ones - as well as why metal covers dull the tone.

Sassafras

I seem to remember reading that inductance (whatever that is) gives a more realistic idea of a pickup's power.

springhead

Inductance and magnetic strength will tell you about a pickups "output".  Resistance is a vague clue.  I think it's become a thing because it's easy to measure.  But I do wish people would stop referring to "a pickups output is x KOhms". Ohms is the unit for the measurement of resistance, it can't actually be an expression of signal level!   It's like saying a car's top speed is 1.6 Litres.  Engine capacity is a clue to speed but many other factors involved.   

OilCityPickups

ICBM said:

The capacitance is actually fairly significant and is one reason larger, flatter coils are brighter than taller, narrower ones - as well as why metal covers dull the tone.

Totally ...

springhead said:

Inductance and magnetic strength will tell you about a pickups "output".  Resistance is a vague clue.  I think it's become a thing because it's easy to measure.  But I do wish people would stop referring to "a pickups output is x KOhms". Ohms is the unit for the measurement of resistance, it can't actually be an expression of signal level!   It's like saying a car's top speed is 1.6 Litres.  Engine capacity is a clue to speed but many other factors involved.   

Millivolts output is probably the best indicator of pure signal strength ... but it's out of most people's ability to measure as it requires a signal generator that will feed a test frequency to the pickup. Plucking the strings and reading the millivolts is useless as plucking strength and where you pick on the string will vary the millivolts the pickup is delivering.

I would say that pickup manufacturers are as much to blame as the pickup buying public for persisting with the DCR 'output' myth. If I had my way I would not even quote DCR on my site ... but people keep asking for it ... so I go with the flow!

thegummy

It's frustrating that there isn't a universal measurement of pickup output.

Buying pickups in general is little more than based on a whim for the majority of people who don't get a chance to thoroughly test lots of different ones but we at least would like to have balanced output (or at least a desired mis match) without having to go for a set of the same kind.

I'm after a fatter sounding Strat bridge and I knew gilmour has that so I checked the specs of his and it's about 13k resistance or so. Bare Knuckle, however, don't have anything that high even in the pickups they class as very high output modern ones.

Hence this question, does it mean the pickup they call hot at around 8k can have just as much output as the 13k Gilmour one?

normula1

I thought the Gilmour bridge pickup was an off the shelf Seymour Duncan

OilCityPickups

thegummy said:

It's frustrating that there isn't a universal measurement of pickup output.

Buying pickups in general is little more than based on a whim for the majority of people who don't get a chance to thoroughly test lots of different ones but we at least would like to have balanced output (or at least a desired mis match) without having to go for a set of the same kind.

I'm after a fatter sounding Strat bridge and I knew gilmour has that so I checked the specs of his and it's about 13k resistance or so. Bare Knuckle, however, don't have anything that high even in the pickups they class as very high output modern ones.

Hence this question, does it mean the pickup they call hot at around 8k can have just as much output as the 13k Gilmour one?

Yes Gilmour uses a 13k pickup (I know I make a version myself)... it's wound with finer wire rather than the 42awg wire that Strat pickups usually are wound with ... and probably is not much higher output than a pokey 8k pickup  ... however it's tone is more middle focused which is what Gilmour is famous for. @Gassage has one of mine ... he can tell you how they sound compared to a 'normal' Strat pickup.

thegummy

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

It's frustrating that there isn't a universal measurement of pickup output.

Buying pickups in general is little more than based on a whim for the majority of people who don't get a chance to thoroughly test lots of different ones but we at least would like to have balanced output (or at least a desired mis match) without having to go for a set of the same kind.

I'm after a fatter sounding Strat bridge and I knew gilmour has that so I checked the specs of his and it's about 13k resistance or so. Bare Knuckle, however, don't have anything that high even in the pickups they class as very high output modern ones.

Hence this question, does it mean the pickup they call hot at around 8k can have just as much output as the 13k Gilmour one?

Yes Gilmour uses a 13k pickup (I know I make a version myself)... it's wound with finer wire rather than the 42awg wire that Strat pickups usually are wound with ... and probably is not much higher output than a pokey 8k pickup  ... however it's tone is more middle focused which is what Gilmour is famous for. @Gassage has one of mine ... he can tell you how they sound compared to a 'normal' Strat pickup.

Which of yours is similar to the Gilmour one?

I quite fancied the Diamond Geezer just for having the option of a switchable extra sound. Is it available with flat poles instead of stagger?

prowla

The DC resistance is simply a measure of how long the wire is, which translates to how many winds. However, different wires may (will) have different resistance, so it is not a precise measure.

One thing it does do is tell you that the wires aren't broken!

prowla

Oh, and don't refer to the resistance as "output"!

OilCityPickups

thegummy said:

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

It's frustrating that there isn't a universal measurement of pickup output.

Buying pickups in general is little more than based on a whim for the majority of people who don't get a chance to thoroughly test lots of different ones but we at least would like to have balanced output (or at least a desired mis match) without having to go for a set of the same kind.

I'm after a fatter sounding Strat bridge and I knew gilmour has that so I checked the specs of his and it's about 13k resistance or so. Bare Knuckle, however, don't have anything that high even in the pickups they class as very high output modern ones.

Hence this question, does it mean the pickup they call hot at around 8k can have just as much output as the 13k Gilmour one?

Yes Gilmour uses a 13k pickup (I know I make a version myself)... it's wound with finer wire rather than the 42awg wire that Strat pickups usually are wound with ... and probably is not much higher output than a pokey 8k pickup  ... however it's tone is more middle focused which is what Gilmour is famous for. @Gassage has one of mine ... he can tell you how they sound compared to a 'normal' Strat pickup.

Which of yours is similar to the Gilmour one?

I quite fancied the Diamond Geezer just for having the option of a switchable extra sound. Is it available with flat poles instead of stagger?

DG stands for Dave Gilmour right ... DG also equals Diamond Geezer .... and Gillmour was the Geezer that did 'Shine on you Crazy Diamond'
Enough hints? ;-)

And yes you can have it flush pole :-)

OilCityPickups

thegummy said:

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

It's frustrating that there isn't a universal measurement of pickup output.

Buying pickups in general is little more than based on a whim for the majority of people who don't get a chance to thoroughly test lots of different ones but we at least would like to have balanced output (or at least a desired mis match) without having to go for a set of the same kind.

I'm after a fatter sounding Strat bridge and I knew gilmour has that so I checked the specs of his and it's about 13k resistance or so. Bare Knuckle, however, don't have anything that high even in the pickups they class as very high output modern ones.

Hence this question, does it mean the pickup they call hot at around 8k can have just as much output as the 13k Gilmour one?

Yes Gilmour uses a 13k pickup (I know I make a version myself)... it's wound with finer wire rather than the 42awg wire that Strat pickups usually are wound with ... and probably is not much higher output than a pokey 8k pickup  ... however it's tone is more middle focused which is what Gilmour is famous for. @Gassage has one of mine ... he can tell you how they sound compared to a 'normal' Strat pickup.

Which of yours is similar to the Gilmour one?

I quite fancied the Diamond Geezer just for having the option of a switchable extra sound. Is it available with flat poles instead of stagger?

DG stands for Dave Gilmour right ... DG also equals Diamond Geezer .... and Gilmour was the Geezer that did 'Shine on you Crazy Diamond'
Enough hints? ;-)

And yes you can have it flush pole :-)

Gassage

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

It's frustrating that there isn't a universal measurement of pickup output.

Buying pickups in general is little more than based on a whim for the majority of people who don't get a chance to thoroughly test lots of different ones but we at least would like to have balanced output (or at least a desired mis match) without having to go for a set of the same kind.

I'm after a fatter sounding Strat bridge and I knew gilmour has that so I checked the specs of his and it's about 13k resistance or so. Bare Knuckle, however, don't have anything that high even in the pickups they class as very high output modern ones.

Hence this question, does it mean the pickup they call hot at around 8k can have just as much output as the 13k Gilmour one?

Yes Gilmour uses a 13k pickup (I know I make a version myself)... it's wound with finer wire rather than the 42awg wire that Strat pickups usually are wound with ... and probably is not much higher output than a pokey 8k pickup  ... however it's tone is more middle focused which is what Gilmour is famous for. @Gassage has one of mine ... he can tell you how they sound compared to a 'normal' Strat pickup.

Contrary to the CS model, the real black strat has a Custom Shop Seymour SSL1C-DG-CS in it.

Seymour used the spec Ash alludes to.

It's monsterous in output without ever being harsh.

Ash actually rewound the original 1961 black-back in my strat as it was dying anyway.

guitars4you

thegummy said:

It's frustrating that there isn't a universal measurement of pickup output.

ICBM said:

DC resistance is a crude indicator of output and tone if all other factors are similar, but by itself it's not a good guide to either.

if the pick-ups are similar, ie 2 pafs from the same builder then a 7.75k and a 8.2K reading will tell you one is hotter - Only slightly - So a DC resistance reading does have its purpose - Same with 3 similar Strat pick-ups say 5.5, 5.6 and 5.9K - You know which to put in the bridge position etc

But as others have indicated as above, a thinner winding, with more turns will produce  a higher reading but that won't equate to a higher output - So it works when comparing a like for like pick-up, but not if built/spec'd differently

OilCityPickups

guitars4you said:

thegummy said:

It's frustrating that there isn't a universal measurement of pickup output.

ICBM said:

DC resistance is a crude indicator of output and tone if all other factors are similar, but by itself it's not a good guide to either.

if the pick-ups are similar, ie 2 pafs from the same builder then a 7.75k and a 8.2K reading will tell you one is hotter - Only slightly - So a DC resistance reading does have its purpose - Same with 3 similar Strat pick-ups say 5.5, 5.6 and 5.9K - You know which to put in the bridge position etc

But as others have indicated as above, a thinner winding, with more turns will produce  a higher reading but that won't equate to a higher output - So it works when comparing a like for like pick-up, but not if built/spec'd differently

Exactly ... and you have to take account of the magnet too ... a fairly polite 8k P90 with twin alnico 5 magnets could for example have twin alnico 8 magnets installed instead (I have done this fairly often) the result will practically blow your windows out.