Fishman Ellipse Matrix or LR Baggs Anthem?

Andyjr1515

Hi All

Probably a question discussed many times...

I'm looking to install a blended mic system in my latest dreadnought build to try to at least capture the essence of the acoustic tone through an amp  

My previous three acoustic builds have used the Shadow Doubleplay - which is fine if you want just an amplified sound...but it's more electric than acoustic.

My present contenders are both mic blend systems, the Fishman Ellipse Matrix and the LR Baggs Anthem.  With the mic type and fixing position being so different, any views to which gives the most 'natural' sound?

Also, there seems to be a trend towards dropping the piezo bit altogether and blending with transducers, etc..  Again, any views, folks?

Teyeplayer

I had the LR baggs lyric (so the mic half of the anthem) on a Martin 000 a while back. It was ok, although I found very few sound men who could eq it accurately and as a result, I never felt I was getting the best of it -it was always a little too boxy.

Will be be very interested to see what you go with and how you feel about it when installed as I’ve toyed with the same dilemma for my Eastman.

jiff41

I've had an Anthem fitted to my Martin D35 for a while & it sounds great, very natural.  Our lady vocalist has a Fishman undersaddle & mic (Can't remember the name of it?) fitted to her Martin which she isn't very happy with & asked me to see if I could make it sound better I tried moving the mic around as it's a gooseneck sort but it didn't make much difference so in the end I gave up & now she uses her old acoustic with a Piezo bug in it & she prefers the sound so I would say the L R Baggs is better?,,  Purely a personal view! 

Fuengi

What's the K&K one that seems to get universally good reviews, the Pure Mini I think? 

GTC

I recently acquired an IK Multimedia Acoustic Stage pro - which provides a microphone / transducer which clips onto the soundhole of virtually any guitar. It also provides a digital as well as an analogue amp output. Sound quality is very good IMO, with a genuine acoustic tone.

I fitted a K&K Pure Mini (transducer style) to my BSG A-Pro, and that is very good if you want a simple fixed, battery free solution.

I have an LR Baggs Anthem on My K.Yairi Parlour - and I do not find the acoustic tone as natural as either of the above

Lewy

Teyeplayer said:

I had the LR baggs lyric (so the mic half of the anthem) on a Martin 000 a while back. It was ok, although I found very few sound men who could eq it accurately and as a result, I never felt I was getting the best of it -it was always a little too boxy.

Exactly my experience with the Lyric too. Weird mid frequencies that are fiddly to do anything with.

If you specifically want a mic blend, I’d go with the K&K one  because at least with that system, the thing that’s getting blended with the mic also sounds good (I.e. bridgeplate transducers, not nasty sounding under saddle piezos).

Andyjr1515

Some very helpful views and experiences here, folks. Much appreciated!

Andyjr1515

The K&K Pure Mini is certainly an impressive transducer system and I agree does seem to have the most natural sound of them all.  

Never thought about it before, but presumably in the same way that it can be incorporated with a mic through, say, the Trinity preamp system, do you reckon it could be used instead of the undersaddle piezo in the L R Baggs Anthem system?  

Clearly I would need to make sure they are not both fighting for the same real-estate on the bridge-plate...but I suppose that is the advantage of building your own   I could even build in the L R Baggs piezo in anyway and fit a mini jack to the Pure Mini so I can plug in either and compare the piezo with the Pure Mini then use whichever sounds best. 


Probably a certain kind of madness but I'm thinking maybe no harm in trying?  What do you reckon?

TimmyO

iirc the Anthem electronics mix them.suchbthatbtue mic low end is dumped hence not so boomy as the lyric alone - you effectively get the piezoelectric for the low end (where they sound fine - no quack at those frequencies) and the mic for higher freqs 

Andyjr1515

TimmyO said:

iirc the Anthem electronics mix them.suchbthatbtue mic low end is dumped hence not so boomy as the lyric alone - you effectively get the piezoelectric for the low end (where they sound fine - no quack at those frequencies) and the mic for higher freqs 

Yes - good point.  Maybe I'm trying to solve a problem that isn't there in the first place...wouldn't be a first time

The other (pricey) option, might be to actually go for the K&K Trinity system - that is, the Pure Mini mixable with a K&K matched mic.  But once I'm at that kind of price level, would and alternative of a side mounted 3 ch EQ preamp system from Fishman or L R Baggs (also generally pricey) be able to tame the overall sound?  Dunno

I'm probably barking up the wrong tree, but it's just that - on all the acoustics, hybrids and electrics with piezo bridges I've owned - it has always been the piezo that has been limited and yet unduly influenced the overall sound.  Might just be me, of course...

Lewy

Piezos are the worst and there’s just no need in this day and age to have to make that sound.

Personally I’d just go with the Pure Mini and not worry about a blended system. It’ll sound 90% as good for much less expense and gubbins inside the guitar...

camf

Schatten HFN seems to get a lot of love as the fave acoustic pickup de jour. Worth checking out user experiences on https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=534436  

camf

I'm about to pull the trigger on one as they're quite reasonably priced too. 

Teyeplayer

Trying to work this out, but isn’t the schatten hfn pretty much the same as the baggs ibeam?

GTC

Inspired by this thread I tried blending the input of the IK Multimedia Acoustic Stage Pro clip-on soundhole mic with the output from the fitted K&K Pure Mini (via the Stage Pro Aux input) on my BSG A-Pro. Very impressed with the results and flexibility in tone.

A sort of similar wireless (but significantly more expensive) alternative to the Stage Pro is the CloudVocal iSolo. I know someone who has got one of these recently and has been raving (positively) about it

TimmyO

GTC said:

alternative to the Stage Pro is the CloudVocal iSolo

I don't think you can actually buy those any more - they started off as a kickstarter thing, got widely reviewed at that point, and now their site lists a limited number of stockists around the world none of whom seem to stock them 

TheBigDipper

I use the standard K&K Pure Mini on a L'Arrivee and a Brook. I'm playing solo or with another acoustic player. TBH, if you're sitting in an electric band mic, just a magnetic soundhole pickup is a good choice. 

Plugging into a preamp helps improve the sound of the K&K from decent to very decent (IMHO). Nothing seems to sound like a guitar in the room except for a guitar in the room, properly mic'd. A non-starter for the gigs I do! I've recently bought a TC Helicon Play Acoustic pedal (for voice effects and guitar effects) and that's looking quite promising. It has a BodyRez feature that augments the sound of the pickup, which is quite pleasing to use. 

GTC

TimmyO said:

GTC said:

alternative to the Stage Pro is the CloudVocal iSolo

I don't think you can actually buy those any more - they started off as a kickstarter thing, got widely reviewed at that point, and now their site lists a limited number of stockists around the world none of whom seem to stock them 

The person I was referring to ordered one direct from their website about 6 weeks ago and it was delivered (to Slovenia) in a week. On their website, you can still buy direct. 

TimmyO

GTC said:

TimmyO said:

GTC said:

alternative to the Stage Pro is the CloudVocal iSolo

I don't think you can actually buy those any more - they started off as a kickstarter thing, got widely reviewed at that point, and now their site lists a limited number of stockists around the world none of whom seem to stock them 

The person I was referring to ordered one direct from their website about 6 weeks ago and it was delivered (to Slovenia) in a week. On their website, you can still buy direct. 

ah, cool 

camf

Teyeplayer said:

Trying to work this out, but isn’t the schatten hfn pretty much the same as the baggs ibeam?

I don’t know much about the ibeam but the reviews and comments on the Schatten seem very favourable. I’ve worked out a plan B so I probably won’t need to buy one now so I can’t give any personal thoughts on it. 

Andyjr1515

OK - maintaining my reputation as being on the crazy side of crackers, I'm going to take a gamble.

Finding the very tempting K&K Trinity Onboard system pretty unobtainable and/or very, very expensive, and then going through dozens of reviews and YouTube clips, of the offerings of L R Baggs and Fishman and a number of others, and then adding to those the learned responses from you fine folk above, I'm going to go 'off-piste'

The guitar is destined for a pro-player, but one who is also not afraid to experiment.  He does a lot of studio work and live work - which, in any event, probably will each need a different solution.  

So what I've been looking for is a decent internal mic system AND the widely loved K&K Pure Mini - both going through a blendable onboard pre-amp (and hence the Trinity idea had it been a bit more in reach)

So I've then looked at mixing up systems and suppliers.  But - either for conceptual or electronics reasons - there may be issues.  For example, the Pure Mini may not like going through someone else's pre-amp as a pseudo piezo.  So I may need an actual piezo option anyway.  Additionally the studio vs live differences might call for the option of both of these different approaches.  

So my off-piste gamble is:

The L R Baggs Anthem mic/piezo system       and      a K&K Pure Mini transducer-pickup


I'll try to get some info from the makers on the relative outputs and impedances of the Pure mini and the Anthem piezo but I plan to either make these two switchable, or - if physics allows - even blendable.  


The holy grail stuff probably won't work, but I can always revert to either Pure Mini + Anthem mic, or just the stock Anthem piezo/mic system and all the experiment will have cost me is the cost of the Pure Mini.


By the way, the build diary is here, if anyone is interested in such stuff.  

I will feed back to you all the sonic results, - be they good or be they bad