Getting started with VSTs, Plugins, IRs etc.

johnl

Afternoon all - Very often in Youtube videos I'll see people plugging their guitars into their PCs and then they selecting an amp and cab plugin, placing virtual mics etc. What do I need to get started doing this? I'm assuming some kind of interface and the appropriate software but don't really know where to get started.

Branshen

If u want to use VST amps, most critically, you'll need a low latency interface. If not, you'll feel the lag between picking and hearing the sound.

I use a focusrite scarlett 1st gen and it's not quite low latency enough for me to be happy using VST amps with it. 

crunchman

Might be worth having a look in the Studio and Recording section.

thegummy

Branshen said:

If u want to use VST amps, most critically, you'll need a low latency interface. If not, you'll feel the lag between picking and hearing the sound.

I use a focusrite scarlett 1st gen and it's not quite low latency enough for me to be happy using VST amps with it. 

At which buffer size?

octatonic

thegummy said:

Branshen said:

If u want to use VST amps, most critically, you'll need a low latency interface. If not, you'll feel the lag between picking and hearing the sound.

I use a focusrite scarlett 1st gen and it's not quite low latency enough for me to be happy using VST amps with it. 

At which buffer size?

Buffer size only tells you part of the equation.
I have 4 different interfaces that all give me between 3ms and 10ms latency at a 64 sample buffer.
I can kinda feel 3ms but it is workable, but 10ms is useless.

IMHO it is better to use a DSP accelerated sound card (HDX, UAudio Apollo) or FPGA solution for tracking.
Otherwise use an Axe FX (or similar modeller) on the front end and take a dry signal on a muted track to re-amp or process though a amp sim.

thegummy

octatonic said:

thegummy said:

Branshen said:

If u want to use VST amps, most critically, you'll need a low latency interface. If not, you'll feel the lag between picking and hearing the sound.

I use a focusrite scarlett 1st gen and it's not quite low latency enough for me to be happy using VST amps with it. 

At which buffer size?

Buffer size only tells you part of the equation.

He's already said what interface he's using.

Branshen

13ms at 64 samples. Of course that's specific to my system and one might get different results with a scarlett but my point is that the OP should be aware that not all interfaces are equal and it would really affect the usability and enjoyability of such a system. 

thegummy

Branshen said:

13ms at 64 samples. Of course that's specific to my system and one might get different results with a scarlett but my point is that the OP should be aware that not all interfaces are equal and it would really affect the usability and enjoyability of such a system. 

Are you sure it's set up properly? You definitely using the proper Focusrite ASIO driver?

Is it possibly some plugin that's causing the latency? Or is it the lowest model in the range with just the one input? I've heard that the preamp on those are bad to the point of being unusable, maybe they work with the driver in an equally terrible way. It's the one with 2 mic/instrument inputs I had from the first gen (8i6) and got much much lower than that. In fact I was getting lower than that 15 years ago.

I don't think it's the case that different systems will have different latency when using the same interface - when you think of how a buffer actually works it doesn't make sense.

13ms is definitely not good for playing amp sims in real time. Buying a current Scarlett, or an interface on that level, will allow just a couple of ms with any reasonably powerful PC though.

normula1

The first gen Scarlet 2*2 will run on the gen2 driver which improves the latency no end. However it's a relatively low impedance input, so I always run my guitar into a Boss pedal first to take advantage of the buffer. If you're not sure how far you'll go with this (I tend to only dip in for a week or so occasionally) I'd go with the gen 3 Solo which comes with software and access to a few plugins. There's also loads of free plugins out there than can sound pretty good to try out.

thegummy

Aw, the software I would have recommended which is not only the best sounding software one I've used (though none are as good as the hardware amp sim I use) but also very well priced is now discontinued.

I believe Amplitube has a free version that has some amp sims and effects/cabs etc. I don't think it sounds amazing but it definitely doesn't sound bad and would give you an idea if you liked the workflow of the guitar going through your computer without having to spend money on software.

skullfunkerry

In terms of software, you'll also need a DAW (Digita Audio Workstation) - somewhere to actually record what you're doing. I use Reaper; it's excellent and you can use it without paying to test it with no limitations. When you buy it, it's much cheaper than stuff like Logic or Protools

notanon

@johnl if some of these replies seem complicated then just shout please simplify.

I have a friend who definitely would not understand what people posted here.

First of all have you got any device that will plug into your computer? Probably a usb device? It could be an amp or pedal such as a zoom or boss.

PonchoGreg

I think a lot of the entry level (but good quality) usb interfaces come with a basic version of a daw these days, often Ableton. But that's only if you want to record, really, as a lot of the amp sims will have a standalone mode.

As far as amp software goes, I always shill for it, but s-gear 2 is really really good for not a lot of money. Also avoids the option paralysis as there are only 5-6 really versatile and quality amps. If I remember correctly the trial period is pretty generous.

johnl

Thanks guys - most of this makes a certain sort of sense. Can you get close to zero latency with USB interfaces or is it best to go for firewire / PCI-E? In the past the only time I've tried recording the latency was really noticeable and threw me a bit.

octatonic

johnl said:

Thanks guys - most of this makes a certain sort of sense. Can you get close to zero latency with USB interfaces or is it best to go for firewire / PCI-E? In the past the only time I've tried recording the latency was really noticeable and threw me a bit.

For a couple of channels it doesn't really matter which connector it has- it is down to how efficient the drivers are.

Good companies are RME, Focusrite, Audient, Universal Audio.
RME have the most rock solid and lowest latency of any native solution and they support their interfaces much longer than anyone else.
Some of RME's USB interfaces are lower latency than Thunderbolt or Firewire.

Firewire is mostly a dead technology now- most people in the Mac world are using Thunderbolt 2/3 now.

If you want the lowest latency possible without getting into crazy money then look at UAudio Apollo.
You can track through their DSP plugins with almost no latency and then flip the plugin into the DAW mixer for mixing.

TTBZ

I used to do this for playing at home til I got my HX Stomp which is just a much nicer all in one solution for me. That said I think Mercuriall Spark sounds miles better than Helix for the Marshall sounds. They also do other plugins but I haven’t tried them. Amplitube isn’t really worth bothering with any more imo, much better sounding and feeling stuff out there.

I just didn’t like being tied to the pc when playing, and no interface I’ve tried has felt as good/latency free as a hardware modeller so it’s about what you prioritise. I couldn’t afford a pc + interface good enough to get the low latency feel I wanted, nor could I be arsed with the faff.

stratman3142

There's some useful info on interfaces at the link below. However, how low you can set the spls setting will be affected by the power of your computer.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=174445

In particular the table in the first post at the link below

http://kailuamusicschool.com/tech/round-trip-latency-roundup/

My interface is a Zoom UAC-2 (USB3). At 44.1kHz and 64 spls, that gives me an input/output latency of 1.4/4.0 reported in Reaper (i.e. a roundtrip latency of 5.4ms), which matches the latency in the above table. I've also confirmed the roundtrip latency by doing a 'loop back test' (you can Google that one).

In the table at the link above, the reported performance of the Focusrite Scarlett 2nd generation (USB) is about 6ms at 64 spls, which is comparable to my Zoom -UAC 2, but it's less expensive. However, I haven't got one to check.

Here's my personal experience of latency, if it's of any use.

I find 6ms is OK for me, even when listening through my monitors which are about 2 feet away, so that adds an extra 2ms latency (i.e. 1ms per foot). 

If I listen through headphones, I can raise things to 96spls which gives a roundtrip latency of just under 7ms and things are still good. If I use 128spls with headphones that gives me just over 8ms roundtrip latency and I start to sense something is off. So I believe my threshold is somewhere in the region of 8 to 9ms.

Playing live I'm probably in the region of  up to 6 to 7 feet of my main amp which is in the region of 6ms to 7ms latency (i.e. 1ms per foot) and things are fine. It starts to bother me if I get too far away from my amp. I have another amp on the other side of the stage. Occasionally our bass player will turn it up to hear me better but, if it gets too loud, I have to tell him to turn it down, or point it away, because the latency I hear from it is really off-putting.

I can only report on my personal experience. I think people are affected differently by latency and have different thresholds. So it would be interesting to hear other views.

thegummy

stratman3142 said:

There's some useful info on interfaces at the link below. However, how low you can set the spls setting will be affected by the power of your computer.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=174445

In particular the table in the first post at the link below

http://kailuamusicschool.com/tech/round-trip-latency-roundup/

My interface is a Zoom UAC-2 (USB3). At 44.1kHz and 64 spls, that gives me an input/output latency of 1.4/4.0 reported in Reaper (i.e. a roundtrip latency of 5.4ms), which matches the latency in the above table. I've also confirmed the roundtrip latency by doing a 'loop back test' (you can Google that one).

In the table at the link above, the reported performance of the Focusrite Scarlett 2nd generation (USB) is about 6ms at 64 spls, which is comparable to my Zoom -UAC 2, but it's less expensive. However, I haven't got one to check.

Here's my personal experience of latency, if it's of any use.

I find 6ms is OK for me, even when listening through my monitors which are about 2 feet away, so that adds an extra 2ms latency (i.e. 1ms per foot). 

If I listen through headphones, I can raise things to 96spls which gives a roundtrip latency of just under 7ms and things are still good. If I use 128spls with headphones that gives me just over 8ms roundtrip latency and I start to sense something is off. So I believe my threshold is somewhere in the region of 8 to 9ms.

Playing live I'm probably in the region of  up to 6 to 7 feet of my main amp which is in the region of 6ms to 7ms latency (i.e. 1ms per foot) and things are fine. It starts to bother me if I get too far away from my amp. I have another amp on the other side of the stage. Occasionally our bass player will turn it up to hear me better but, if it gets too loud, I have to tell him to turn it down, or point it away, because the latency I hear from it is really off-putting.

I can only report on my personal experience. I think people are affected differently by latency and have different thresholds. So it would be interesting to hear other views.

Good post.

The <8ms is when latency becomes imperceptible.

As you point out, 1ms of latency is the same as being 1 foot further away so anyone who feels they can't play with 6ms latency wouldn't be able to play 6 feet away from an amp.

stratman3142

thegummy said:

As you point out, 1ms of latency is the same as being 1 foot further away so anyone who feels they can't play with 6ms latency wouldn't be able to play 6 feet away from an amp.

But I also assume when you're in a larger studio and recording whilst listening through monitors some distance away, that it may be necessary to have very low latency from the audio interface itself. Simply wearing headphones, compared to listening through studio monitors, can shave quite a bit off the latency when recording.
 

thegummy

TTBZ said:

I used to do this for playing at home til I got my HX Stomp which is just a much nicer all in one solution for me. That said I think Mercuriall Spark sounds miles better than Helix for the Marshall sounds. They also do other plugins but I haven’t tried them. Amplitube isn’t really worth bothering with any more imo, much better sounding and feeling stuff out there.

I just didn’t like being tied to the pc when playing, and no interface I’ve tried has felt as good/latency free as a hardware modeller so it’s about what you prioritise. I couldn’t afford a pc + interface good enough to get the low latency feel I wanted, nor could I be arsed with the faff.

I too use a stand alone amp modeller for a few reasons:

IMO even the best PC amp sim (and I tried all the big ones) doesn't sound as good as my stand alone (Atomic). Not that the PC ones all sound terrible; since the one I liked most is discontinued (Kazrog) the best one to me that's still available is Scuffham, as @PonchoGreg mentioned.

With the latency - when just running the amp sim, a powerful PC can run at very low latency no problem. But the more the PC is doing, the more it will struggle. So if I'm recording a song with loads of tracks that already have loads of plugins on them and then want to do a guitar overdub, the PC quite likely won't cope at low enough latency. With the stand alone amp sim, the only thing it ever has to do is the amp sim itself.

Doesn't even necessarily have to be a recording session, could be that I'm running some intensive apps on the computer that aren't audio related and I want to have a quick half hour guitar session, it means I don't have to close down anything.

Another bonus is that if I want to go somewhere else to play I can take a little box rather than a pc/laptop and interface.

TTBZ

I kinda wish I got an Atomic AFB to be fair - the HX Stomp is great but I only really use 2-3 amps in it (Placater, Plexi and Badonk), I hear Atomic does the British amp stuff better and I’m sure there’s a good heavy model in there too. I’m guilty of excessive tweaking whereas the AFB wouldn’t let me do that on the unit so I’d just put up with it! I like the WYSIWYG layout, I’m usually a single channel amp player so it works for me.

If if I already had a decent pc I may have ended up going that route with a nice interface as Spark is so good for Marshall tones and does the best 2204 tone I’ve heard from a modeller, it has that upper mid roar and kerrang. PC based does have its own advantages such as ease of recording quick ideas, not being tied into one software  ecosystem etc. Plus the Neural DSP stuff sounds awesome too.