Are modellers as good as amps?

professorben

Just watched a great little video from Chris Buck of Buck & Evans, who seems to have now gone fully Helix and Powercab for both studio and majority of live. 

Given that TPS were waxing lyrical about his tone and ear and generally commending his touch and feel, is he now rubbish? Or has he realised that the whole ‘touch feel mojo punch impact sensitivity’ are just totally subjective and indefinable variables projected into gear by the players themselves? 

merlin

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Bands like Mastodon aren't giving up their valve amps. Nor Tool.

I wouldn't give up my tool either. 

WiresDreamDisasters

digitalscream said:

DLM said:

I tend to believe this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9rKZJ2m2TA

For anyone curious, skip to 1:39:00 for modeller talk.

I'm inclined not to listen to that guy, because not once did he mention working on the unit to mitigate the problems. The vast majority of the time, the problem is that the patch has been set up poorly, and that's borne out by the fact that he says it sounded great in isolation; patches are inevitably set up by the guitarist, on their own.

Lest we forget, the problems he ascribes to all modellers are exactly the problems that loads of people had with Victory amps (for example) - disappearing in the mix, and needing lots more volume to be heard. Did everyone blame all valve amps for that? Nope. And there were still more people who didn't have a problem with it at all...so is the problem the hardware, or the user, or the context? And why do anti-modeller folk not ask that question about modellers?

I think a lot of what he is saying echoes my experience too. I've had the exact same experience of having an Axe FX + poweramp + cab and comparing them to my Diezel D-Moll into the same cab.

Brand new patches made in the context of the rest of the band just looping around a heavy section of one of our songs.

I couldn't get the Fractal to cut through in the same way. The Fractal needed to be LOUDER than the valve amp for me to be able to hear what I was playing, which would then introduce feedback and extra noise and all sorts of problems.

And I spent many practices trying to get that working. It was back when I sat in on a session with @Clarky and I was blown away by his tones. But I just couldn't make it work for me. That's why I sold my Axe FX II.

This is going back a few years. I think these things work for certain types of bands with certain types of sounds. But it doesn't really work for my band.

And I've used Amplitube on some of our releases (for a few overdubs) and I'm considering a Kemper Stage, so I'm not anti-modelling by any stretch!

professorben

WiresDreamDisasters said:

digitalscream said:

DLM said:

I tend to believe this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9rKZJ2m2TA

For anyone curious, skip to 1:39:00 for modeller talk.

I'm inclined not to listen to that guy, because not once did he mention working on the unit to mitigate the problems. The vast majority of the time, the problem is that the patch has been set up poorly, and that's borne out by the fact that he says it sounded great in isolation; patches are inevitably set up by the guitarist, on their own.

Lest we forget, the problems he ascribes to all modellers are exactly the problems that loads of people had with Victory amps (for example) - disappearing in the mix, and needing lots more volume to be heard. Did everyone blame all valve amps for that? Nope. And there were still more people who didn't have a problem with it at all...so is the problem the hardware, or the user, or the context? And why do anti-modeller folk not ask that question about modellers?

I think a lot of what he is saying echoes my experience too. I've had the exact same experience of having an Axe FX + poweramp + cab and comparing them to my Diezel D-Moll into the same cab.

Brand new patches made in the context of the rest of the band just looping around a heavy section of one of our songs.

I couldn't get the Fractal to cut through in the same way. The Fractal needed to be LOUDER than the valve amp for me to be able to hear what I was playing, which would then introduce feedback and extra noise and all sorts of problems.

And I spent many practices trying to get that working. It was back when I sat in on a session with @Clarky and I was blown away by his tones. But I just couldn't make it work for me. That's why I sold my Axe FX II.

This is going back a few years. I think these things work for certain types of bands with certain types of sounds. But it doesn't really work for my band.

And I've used Amplitube on some of our releases (for a few overdubs) and I'm considering a Kemper Stage, so I'm not anti-modelling by any stretch!

I think overall this whole topic is a moot point now. 
Modellers sound good enough to stand up side by side with any valve amp. 

Its now just about personal preference and what you are using it for, Amp Models don’t work for your band in your experience, I bet a Blues Jnr wouldn’t either. 

I used to use an EVH 5153 (yours actually) and now I use a Helix (...erm yours actually again....) and it works and sounds better for my band. 

I suppose what I’m saying is, please don’t buy a Kemper Stage... because I won’t be able to afford to buy it off you in 18 months time.  
 

p90fool

WiresDreamDisasters said:

digitalscream said:

DLM said:

I tend to believe this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9rKZJ2m2TA

For anyone curious, skip to 1:39:00 for modeller talk.

I'm inclined not to listen to that guy, because not once did he mention working on the unit to mitigate the problems. The vast majority of the time, the problem is that the patch has been set up poorly, and that's borne out by the fact that he says it sounded great in isolation; patches are inevitably set up by the guitarist, on their own.

Lest we forget, the problems he ascribes to all modellers are exactly the problems that loads of people had with Victory amps (for example) - disappearing in the mix, and needing lots more volume to be heard. Did everyone blame all valve amps for that? Nope. And there were still more people who didn't have a problem with it at all...so is the problem the hardware, or the user, or the context? And why do anti-modeller folk not ask that question about modellers?

I think a lot of what he is saying echoes my experience too. I've had the exact same experience of having an Axe FX + poweramp + cab and comparing them to my Diezel D-Moll into the same cab.

Brand new patches made in the context of the rest of the band just looping around a heavy section of one of our songs.

I couldn't get the Fractal to cut through in the same way. The Fractal needed to be LOUDER than the valve amp for me to be able to hear what I was playing, which would then introduce feedback and extra noise and all sorts of problems.

And I spent many practices trying to get that working. It was back when I sat in on a session with @Clarky and I was blown away by his tones. But I just couldn't make it work for me. That's why I sold my Axe FX II.

This is going back a few years. I think these things work for certain types of bands with certain types of sounds. But it doesn't really work for my band.

And I've used Amplitube on some of our releases (for a few overdubs) and I'm considering a Kemper Stage, so I'm not anti-modelling by any stretch!

This is exactly where I am with it. 

I just can't seem to get the right onstage mix consistently, the volume is always either too loud or too quiet. 

Going back to valve amps (or even an analogue modeller) just feels like I can now just relax and play the guitar again. 

Last Saturday's gig was in a big metal barn with a concrete floor, which forced me to tweak loads of setting on my amp and pedals I haven't touched for the last half dozen gigs - I don't know what the hell I would've done with a digital setup. 

It's all very well doing a stadium tour with the same PA, foldback and crew every night, but my life isn't like that. 

professorben

p90fool said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

digitalscream said:

DLM said:

I tend to believe this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9rKZJ2m2TA

For anyone curious, skip to 1:39:00 for modeller talk.

I'm inclined not to listen to that guy, because not once did he mention working on the unit to mitigate the problems. The vast majority of the time, the problem is that the patch has been set up poorly, and that's borne out by the fact that he says it sounded great in isolation; patches are inevitably set up by the guitarist, on their own.

Lest we forget, the problems he ascribes to all modellers are exactly the problems that loads of people had with Victory amps (for example) - disappearing in the mix, and needing lots more volume to be heard. Did everyone blame all valve amps for that? Nope. And there were still more people who didn't have a problem with it at all...so is the problem the hardware, or the user, or the context? And why do anti-modeller folk not ask that question about modellers?

I think a lot of what he is saying echoes my experience too. I've had the exact same experience of having an Axe FX + poweramp + cab and comparing them to my Diezel D-Moll into the same cab.

Brand new patches made in the context of the rest of the band just looping around a heavy section of one of our songs.

I couldn't get the Fractal to cut through in the same way. The Fractal needed to be LOUDER than the valve amp for me to be able to hear what I was playing, which would then introduce feedback and extra noise and all sorts of problems.

And I spent many practices trying to get that working. It was back when I sat in on a session with @Clarky and I was blown away by his tones. But I just couldn't make it work for me. That's why I sold my Axe FX II.

This is going back a few years. I think these things work for certain types of bands with certain types of sounds. But it doesn't really work for my band.

And I've used Amplitube on some of our releases (for a few overdubs) and I'm considering a Kemper Stage, so I'm not anti-modelling by any stretch!

This is exactly where I am with it. 

I just can't seem to get the right onstage mix consistently, the volume is always either too loud or too quiet. 

Going back to valve amps (or even an analogue modeller) just feels like I can now just relax and play the guitar again. 

Last Saturday's gig was in a big metal barn with a concrete floor, which forced me to tweak loads of setting on my amp and pedals I haven't touched for the last half dozen gigs - I don't know what the hell I would've done with a digital setup. 

It's all very well doing a stadium tour with the same PA, foldback and crew every night, but my life isn't like that. 

That’s an interesting point regarding gig life variables. 
I very often cab share so I’m going into anything from tiny 2x12’s to one occasion a bass 4x12 from the 70’s 
the power amp I use has a very powerful 3 band active we do I can trim or boost to match what I’m going through. 
Its all just about knowing your gear, anyone that goes out gigging  without knowing how to edit/tweak/modify their set up it just a fool. 

WiresDreamDisasters

Kempers seem to be working great here though.


I think when you've got one guitarist using modelling and one guitarist using valve, you're gonna have problems. We did anyway.

John_A

I certainly used to get that 'lost in the mix' thing going when I used a Flextone years ago, that was also in a band with another guitarist using a 'proper' amp, now with the Helix I have no such problems, but I'm the only guitarist so that probably helps.

Thing is a certain frequency at a certain volume should cut through a mix whatever the source, so I'm sure it's down to set-up and not just as simple as amps cut through and modellers dont

digitalscream

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Kempers seem to be working great here though.


I think when you've got one guitarist using modelling and one guitarist using valve, you're gonna have problems. We did anyway.

A lot of folk say that - we don't have that problem in BHD, anyway. If anything, I reckon the other guy's tone (Blackstar HT-100 -> matching 4x12") sounds buzzy and horrible, but don't tell him I said that

Beexter

John_A said:

I certainly used to get that 'lost in the mix' thing going when I used a Flextone years ago, that was also in a band with another guitarist using a 'proper' amp, now with the Helix I have no such problems, but I'm the only guitarist so that probably helps.

Thing is a certain frequency at a certain volume should cut through a mix whatever the source, so I'm sure it's down to set-up and not just as simple as amps cut through and modellers dont

I had the same issues back in the day using a Pod2 through a Roland KC350 keyboard amp - still don't understand why that was the case - I'm assuming it has to be something to do with audio frequencies?

Roland

It will be a mixture of factors, eg EQ differences, non-linear compression across the EQ spectrum, and speaker dispersion patterns.

Roland

p90fool said:

I just can't seem to get the right onstage mix consistently, the volume is always either too loud or too quiet ... Last Saturday's gig was in a big metal barn with a concrete floor, which forced me to tweak loads of setting on my amp and pedals I haven't touched for the last half dozen gigs - I don't know what the hell I would've done with a digital setup. 

With a digital setup, and low stage volume level, you can tackle the venue problem at the desk, or at the output EQ of the digital processor. It’s the intermediate stage set up which causes problems, where some equipment is delivering a recorded (or ex PA) sound, and the other equipment is giving the type of live sound that we grew up with.

x-valves4ever

The Valve Vs Solid State debate has been going on for a long time....I remember way back in the early 60’s when the first transistor amps appeared...Burns Orbit series for guitar and the Vox T60 for bass....they were not well received....

Through my 61 years of gigging I have used all valve amps with the exception of a period with a Roland JC 120 in the 70’s.....great rhythm amp and ok for pedals but loses it when the band puts it foot down. In those days everything went out from the back line ....

more recently I had a Roland Blues Cube Artist for a while....sounded nice at home and in the studio but didn’t cut it live....

The new Fender Tonemaster series appeal...mainly due to the absence of weight....an important consideration when you are 71......

however I have to say, and this is just my opinion of course, that there is something about the punch, drive, tone & authority of the valve sound live that is somehow not quite there with all the wonders of modern technology and the resultant products.

Scientific analysis of the performance of solid state devices can show ‘identical’ results in graphs and figures etc.... but there is something that appears to be immeasurable and that makes the difference....

Similar with echo units...I have real tape and pedals but the real tape always wins.....despite the claims of the pedal, makers .....

so there you have my small contribution to the debate.......

professorben

valves4ever said:

The Valve Vs Solid State debate has been going on for a long time....I remember way back in the early 60’s when the first transistor amps appeared...Burns Orbit series for guitar and the Vox T60 for bass....they were not well received....

Through my 61 years of gigging I have used all valve amps with the exception of a period with a Roland JC 120 in the 70’s.....great rhythm amp and ok for pedals but loses it when the band puts it foot down. In those days everything went out from the back line ....

more recently I had a Roland Blues Cube Artist for a while....sounded nice at home and in the studio but didn’t cut it live....

The new Fender Tonemaster series appeal...mainly due to the absence of weight....an important consideration when you are 71......

however I have to say, and this is just my opinion of course, that there is something about the punch, drive, tone & authority of the valve sound live that is somehow not quite there with all the wonders of modern technology and the resultant products.

Scientific analysis of the performance of solid state devices can show ‘identical’ results in graphs and figures etc.... but there is something that appears to be immeasurable and that makes the difference....

Similar with echo units...I have real tape and pedals but the real tape always wins.....despite the claims of the pedal, makers .....

so there you have my small contribution to the debate.......

I find your thoughts surprising given your username....

professorben

John_A said:

I certainly used to get that 'lost in the mix' thing going when I used a Flextone years ago, that was also in a band with another guitarist using a 'proper' amp, now with the Helix I have no such problems, but I'm the only guitarist so that probably helps.

Thing is a certain frequency at a certain volume should cut through a mix whatever the source, so I'm sure it's down to set-up and not just as simple as amps cut through and modellers dont

I had one of the Flextone amps, and I totally agree with your experience, great at home, disappeared onstage. 

 And that put me off modelling technology for over a decade, however comparing a Flextone/Pod/Pod2 to today’s gear is like saying the Model T Ford has a rubbish NCAP rating. 

I totally believe that my modelling set up sounds better than any valve amp I’ve ever used because I had valve amps and now I sound better.

but the same rules applying modelling gear as traditional gear, unfortunately I would say the majority of guitarists don’t have a good sound, and can’t get a good sound regardless of gear, good gear helps because it eliminates the probability of a bad sound, but doesn’t guarantee a good sound. 

Its an uncomfortable reality but most of us on this forum can’t play as well as we think and we don’t sound as good as we think, I’m afraid most people here don’t sound good, and no amount of AxeFX’s or Dumbles will change that.

so yes I think it’s 99.999% user error when using any piece of gear if it doesn’t cut through or feel good or etc etc. 

x-valves4ever

@professorben....I find your thoughts surprising given your username....???.....I find your response surprising as well considering my username and the fact I am pro valves.....

John_A

valves4ever said:

@professorben....I find your thoughts surprising given your username....???.....I find your response surprising as well considering my username and the fact I am pro valves.....

Think he missed off the irony emoji

John_A

professorben said:

John_A said:

I certainly used to get that 'lost in the mix' thing going when I used a Flextone years ago, that was also in a band with another guitarist using a 'proper' amp, now with the Helix I have no such problems, but I'm the only guitarist so that probably helps.

Thing is a certain frequency at a certain volume should cut through a mix whatever the source, so I'm sure it's down to set-up and not just as simple as amps cut through and modellers dont

I had one of the Flextone amps, and I totally agree with your experience, great at home, disappeared onstage. 

 And that put me off modelling technology for over a decade, however comparing a Flextone/Pod/Pod2 to today’s gear is like saying the Model T Ford has a rubbish NCAP rating. 

I totally believe that my modelling set up sounds better than any valve amp I’ve ever used because I had valve amps and now I sound better.

but the same rules applying modelling gear as traditional gear, unfortunately I would say the majority of guitarists don’t have a good sound, and can’t get a good sound regardless of gear, good gear helps because it eliminates the probability of a bad sound, but doesn’t guarantee a good sound. 

Its an uncomfortable reality but most of us on this forum can’t play as well as we think and we don’t sound as good as we think, I’m afraid most people here don’t sound good, and no amount of AxeFX’s or Dumbles will change that.

so yes I think it’s 99.999% user error when using any piece of gear if it doesn’t cut through or feel good or etc etc. 

Couldnt agree more.  My band certainly sound better since I switched to Helix, but they'd probably sound better still with a great player with half my gear (dont tell them that )

professorben

John_A said:

Couldnt agree more.  My band certainly sound better since I switched to Helix, but they'd probably sound better still with a great player with half my gear (dont tell them that )

Of course the main issue of having a Helix is the elimination of needing new pedals or amps. 

sweepy

professorben said:

John_A said:

Couldnt agree more.  My band certainly sound better since I switched to Helix, but they'd probably sound better still with a great player with half my gear (dont tell them that )

Of course the main issue of having a Helix is the elimination of needing new pedals or amps. 

O......K, good luck with that