Are modellers as good as amps?

longi

Love modellers, love valves. Love valves more. I have both plus petals etc and like them so much I use a hybrid setup where I run both at the same time for three sounds I don't have with an amp.

Dominic

This argument has got very boring ........it was probably never valid
they both serve different purposes and they both make electric guitars work .The End.

TTBZ

I’m starting to think for me, “digitally modelling the back end” as I think Pete Thorn puts it is the way to get the best of both worlds. Still get the fun aspect of a real amp, pedals etc and arguably a better feel, but the convenience of digital. I really want an OX Box but it’s far too expensive, wish someone would come out with a budget alternative. I considered a loadbox to use my stomp as an IR loader but it’s too much faff and cabling mess.

dindude

TTBZ said:

I’m starting to think for me, “digitally modelling the back end” as I think Pete Thorn puts it is the way to get the best of both worlds. Still get the fun aspect of a real amp, pedals etc and arguably a better feel, but the convenience of digital. I really want an OX Box but it’s far too expensive, wish someone would come out with a budget alternative. I considered a loadbox to use my stomp as an IR loader but it’s too much faff and cabling mess.

Agree with this, bought an OX over a year ago, remember feeling really guilty on the price but the moneys long forgotten now but still use The OX it every day. Worth every penny. A slightly cheaper alternative could be the Suhr Reactive Load IR.

PolarityMan

WiresDreamDisasters said:

PolarityMan said:

AndyJP said:

Yeah guess I could have turned up to the drummer.   

Always wondered what the IEM experience is like. 

If had taken the Kemper (and own monitor) I could have turned up my monitor volume myself and that wouldn't have affected the FOH volume because I've unlinked them.

We use IEMs at rehearsal and its great, even with only mono mixes.

more deeeets

We have a behringer XR16 which gives us each a mono IEM mix.

We put in mics on the 2 guitar cabs, bass drum, snare, single overhead, 2 x vocals and a DI from the bass amp (post-preamp).

3 of us have behringer powerplays driving shure 215/315s..I also ahve a backup set of KZ audios which are awesome for 14 quid, Alex uses closed back headphone and the drummer uses a behringer wedge.

This recording is off the master bus but its pretty representative of what you can setup for your own mix:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y3kzikjqrisue1f/rehearsal_05Aug2019.mp3?dl=0

The only processing we're doing is cutting some lows out of the guitars and vocals.

PolarityMan

We dobt bother with wireless as playting live we rely on venue monitoring mostly. 

TTBZ

dindude said:

TTBZ said:

I’m starting to think for me, “digitally modelling the back end” as I think Pete Thorn puts it is the way to get the best of both worlds. Still get the fun aspect of a real amp, pedals etc and arguably a better feel, but the convenience of digital. I really want an OX Box but it’s far too expensive, wish someone would come out with a budget alternative. I considered a loadbox to use my stomp as an IR loader but it’s too much faff and cabling mess.

Agree with this, bought an OX over a year ago, remember feeling really guilty on the price but the moneys long forgotten now but still use The OX it every day. Worth every penny. A slightly cheaper alternative could be the Suhr Reactive Load IR.

Yeah I’ve been interested in the Suhr thing since it was announced. Still quite a lot of money though but it has useful features. Kinda hoping Two Notes bring out a Captor IR to go after this market - I had the regular one for a while which was great but got a bit sick of all the cabling it into my interface. There’s a lot to be said for the all in one form factor.

57Deluxe

...but do you feel and smell a modeller??

On a similar note, do you think we would have been having this conversation in thee 80s Fretboard about rise of headless and synth guitars??

hywelg

The difference is always "in the room". I once heard Matt Schofield play through a kemper using the the modelled TR signature amp. And his reaction was "it sounds like me on recordings".

And if you've ever heard him live you'll understand that his " in the room" sound is huge, way "bigger" than he could ever get on a recording. 

professorben

Best of both worlds. 
I use a modeller with a power amp and a 4x12. 

All bases covered, just because you have a modelling unit doesn’t mean you have to go the whole hog and get an FRFR system and in ears and pretend you are a massive touring act. 

Helix
SD Powerstage 170 power amp 
4x12 Cabinet 
2 cables and a speaker lead
2 kettle leads 

it’s the easiest, simplest, best sounding set up I’ve ever had. 
I play punk originals and covers and most gigs I have guys from other bands asking me about what I’m using and complimenting my tones. 

professorben

hywelg said:

The difference is always "in the room". I once heard Matt Schofield play through a kemper using the the modelled TR signature amp. And his reaction was "it sounds like me on recordings".

And if you've ever heard him live you'll understand that his " in the room" sound is huge, way "bigger" than he could ever get on a recording. 

This is most of the issue people have with modelling systems in my opinion. 

Most guitarists (me included) are not used to hearing the complete signal chain including mics and post mic fx. 

We are  used to hearing a guitar amp in the room through our ears, so altering that can sound and feel ‘different’ 

I get around it by not using any cabinet emulation and by pumping the amp models through a real speaker cab with real volume, I honestly think most players would be hard pressed to yell a difference between that and a ‘traditional ‘ amp setup. 

Ive played lots of JCM800’s over the years, each one sounded slightly different, different cabinets etc, the JCM800 in my helix sounds like a JCM800, not like any of the ones I’ve played in the same way none of the real ones sounded like each other either. 
Its like eating a pie, never going to be exactly the same every time, but prob very similar. 

digitalscream

"Are modellers as good as amps?"

Nah. They're way better. I can do stuff with my Helix that I've never been able to do with any amp I've ever owned.

I'm not talking about weird complicated stuff, either - I'm just talking about changing my effects whenever I want, or picking and choosing my clean/rhythm/lead channels from any of a room-full of amps, or running the doubling bassist's sound through an octave-up block and into a 5150 when I'm playing solos so the ass doesn't drop out of the live sound...

With every pedal -> amp rig I've ever used, or could practically arrive with at a gig, I've had to compromise something. With the Helix, I can get "my sound" without any need for compromise. And, on top of that, I'm using the same rig as @professorben up there ^^, with the exception being the cab (I use the lightweight Matrix 2x12"), so I can also carry everything from the car in one go with a hand free.

Don't get me wrong, there are things I'd change about the Helix, like better pitch blocks and a sidechain noise gate, and perhaps a slightly smaller version without the expression pedal...but those aren't essentials for me.

TTBZ

That’s weird because the 800 model sounds and responds absolutely nothing like any 800 I’ve played! All the Marshall models have too much gain and mush, with none of that “kerrang” of a good Marshall. Even with the master and gain dialled down it just isn’t right. Or maybe mines broken.

Roland

... or maybe you play differently with different tone settings, and listen for different things. Yesterday I had a long conversation with an audiologist about what people "hear" in sound. It's partly about physics of the ear, and a lot more about how our brains process what our ears deliver to them.

professorben

TTBZ said:

That’s weird because the 800 model sounds and responds absolutely nothing like any 800 I’ve played! All the Marshall models have too much gain and mush, with none of that “kerrang” of a good Marshall. Even with the master and gain dialled down it just isn’t right. Or maybe mines broken.

I rest my case m’lud. 

digitalscream

TTBZ said:

That’s weird because the 800 model sounds and responds absolutely nothing like any 800 I’ve played! All the Marshall models have too much gain and mush, with none of that “kerrang” of a good Marshall. Even with the master and gain dialled down it just isn’t right. Or maybe mines broken.

I've always found that people focus too much on whether a modelled amp is a perfect recreation of a real amp. Or, worse, whether it's a perfect recreation of their memory of an amp.

I honestly don't give a damn about any of that. I rate modellers based on whether I can get the sounds in my head through them and back into my ears without too much loss, for any given useful volume. Hell, even different modellers have different sounds - the Fractal gear sounds markedly different to the Line 6 gear, for example.

As far as I'm concerned, everything else is just Guitar Rig Top Trumps, and I'm genuinely confused as to why anybody would think about it any differently.

Because I'm right, obviously

TTBZ

Well that’s my problem though I don’t think they sound good at all - they have lost the characteristics of the real amps that make them sound good to me. The Friedman model is the only one that really comes close to what I like. I’m very much a guitar simpleton and my ideal real rig is an overdrive and maybe delay pedal into an 800 or Jubilee.

I dunno, I think now the initial honeymoon period has worn off I'm just finding things that annoy me and I’m spending too much time tweaking instead of playing. I do think the Helix is a great bit of gear but the majority of the amps sound crap in it (mostly muddy/dull/over compressed/no dynamics) which does sort of make me wonder if it’s my guitar tbh. Before I sell I’m trying it with a different guitar and possibly buying some Choptones presets to see how other people dial it in.

lysander

Are you playing the helix as loud as the 800?
Things always sound more compressed and muddy at lower volume so it could be that too.

TTBZ

I’m playing through DT770 headphones so volume isn’t so relevant here. Perhaps that’s the problem though, haven’t tried it through monitors/frfr/power amp with real cab yet - bought it for silent playing at home. I keep banging on about it but with Spark I can load up a blank preset, set the amp to roughly where I would in real life, put the mics where I’d usually put them and get tones I can happily play with without further tweaking. That’s how easy I wanted it to be on the Helix but it isn’t. I really wanted to like it as I prefer an all in one box to play away from the pc. So I do like modelling, just not the Line 6 flavour I guess

lysander

Playing through headphones is all about setting up the right reverb to get the “air of the room” type of feel.
I don’t know if the helix reverbs are good enough for this, I do this with high quality algo reverbs on my pc and it took me a while to get it right.
The canopener VST from goodhertz helps too.