Blackstar Silverline

ecc83

robmac5150 said:

57Deluxe said:

is just me?? but Blackstar started out really interesting and soon escalated into marketeering endless products rather than building a dedicated user base based upon a quality of tone and performance

I had the AC15 type one. incredibly bright as I remember. Didn't stay long....

Do you mean the Artisan 15? If so the circuitry is rather different to the Vox apart from valves. Bright? ICBM usually condems most Blackstars as on the dull side.

Mind you, there was an Artisan 30 went to review with a cap wrong and that had an extended HF response. Such cockups do happen.

Dave.

longshins

ICBM said:

longshins said:

If you are gigging and need to make a change on the fly I find it easier to see the panel by walking over and peering down rather than crouching.

I would never gig with my amp flat on the floor, you can't hear it properly there and always end up dialing it in too loud and bright. If the amp is raised up or tilted back so you can hear it properly, that's exactly why you need them on the front... if they're on the top it's then almost impossible to see them without leaning right over the amp.

Mine sits on a flightcase and I still need to peer down, I agree regarding tilting though.

ICBM

longshins said:

Mine sits on a flightcase and I still need to peer down, I agree regarding tilting though.

Ah... I think you may be taller than me. I am a towering 5'6" on a good day, so a combo on its own flightcase has the controls at perfect hand height if they're on the front, and almost impossible to see if they're on top .

In fact, the correct position is the one Leo Fender came up with as long ago as 1961 - on the front, but angled back so you can see them easily from either in front or above, and if the amp is tilted back they point straight up. In my opinion all amps should be like that really.

darthed1981

I really kind of want one of these - my wife even approves of the look for the living room.

QUESTION though, the 50 or the 100?  Quite a price premium for the 100 for double the power and a few extra knobs, however I do NOT want to have to plug into a PC to dial it in!

The 100 might simply be too loud for regular home use - anyone been able to crank a 50 see if it can handle proper gig volumes?  It sounded like it would go proper loud in my very brief trial, and the ID:TVP had a reputation for being the only SS amp to actually sound as loud as their wattage would suggest.

Thoughts??

ICBM

darthed1981 said:

QUESTION though, the 50 or the 100?  Quite a price premium for the 100 for double the power and a few extra knobs, however I do NOT want to have to plug into a PC to dial it in!

The 100 might simply be too loud for regular home use - anyone been able to crank a 50 see if it can handle proper gig volumes?  It sounded like it would go proper loud in my very brief trial, and the ID:TVP had a reputation for being the only SS amp to actually sound as loud as their wattage would suggest.

Forget about the power and buy the features you want - there's no volume difference between a 50W and a 100W amp at home, both are either unusably loud (if the master volume has a poor taper) or perfectly sensible (if it has a good taper). I haven't played these new ones yet, but the old ones have a good taper and can definitely be turned down to sensible volume.

However, on the old series the Presence and Resonance controls are essential (in my opinion) - far more useful and effective, and better-sounding, than the main EQ - and hence I would always choose the 60 over the 30. If the same is true on the new ones then the 100W is definitely the one to go for.

(Edit) Didn't realise at first that the 50 is the new 30, not the new 60... the new power ratings are probably closer to the true output power, which is how they made the 60W model sound about as loud as a 50W valve Marshall when I A/B'd them - hopefully you don't now need "100W" to get the same volume as a 50W valve amp.

darthed1981

ICBM said:

darthed1981 said:

QUESTION though, the 50 or the 100?  Quite a price premium for the 100 for double the power and a few extra knobs, however I do NOT want to have to plug into a PC to dial it in!

The 100 might simply be too loud for regular home use - anyone been able to crank a 50 see if it can handle proper gig volumes?  It sounded like it would go proper loud in my very brief trial, and the ID:TVP had a reputation for being the only SS amp to actually sound as loud as their wattage would suggest.

Forget about the power and buy the features you want - there's no volume difference between a 50W and a 100W amp at home, both are either unusably loud (if the master volume has a poor taper) or perfectly sensible (if it has a good taper). I haven't played these new ones yet, but the old ones have a good taper and can definitely be turned down to sensible volume.

However, on the old series the Presence and Resonance controls are essential (in my opinion) - far more useful and effective, and better-sounding, than the main EQ - and hence I would always choose the 60 over the 30. If the same is true on the new ones then the 100W is definitely the one to go for.

(Edit) Didn't realise at first that the 50 is the new 30, not the new 60... the new power ratings are probably closer to the true output power, which is how they made the 60W model sound about as loud as a 50W valve Marshall when I A/B'd them - hopefully you don't now need "100W" to get the same volume as a 50W valve amp.

Thanks @ICBM - that was kind of my thoughts, if you want to dial from the amp and not from software (believe it or not, I don't like that much) you need the full panel.

I need a proper try of one before I drop the cash really.  I tried the 50 for a few minutes but not in a booth and with a kid opposite trying a PRS valve amp who was being loud!

That said, I was impressed and I think you would like it more than the Katana at least, it felt very airy and full on the clean channels at low volume, and felt like it would go very loud.

I also was a bit unimpressed with the high gain, but I had to turn that so quiet to be civilised it probably barely moved the speaker.

I've also considered a new HT5R Mk2 as a new amp, but they didn't have one of those for the comparison I'd like to make, i.e. with whatever voicing the Silverline has that equates to an HT5R Mk 2  does the silverline sound as good...

I alos object ot having to drop an extra £150 to get all the knobs (even the basic Katana 50 has a 3 band EQ on the top) so it is possible my aqge old conclusion (the Katana 50 is fine for me for now) will rear its ugly head!

ICBM

darthed1981 said:

That said, I was impressed and I think you would like it more than the Katana at least, it felt very airy and full on the clean channels at low volume, and felt like it would go very loud.

Yes, I already like the full-size original IDs much more than the Katana or the ID Cores - I *almost* like them . If the new Silverlines have taken the Blackstar voicing in the same direction as the new HTs have, then they would be very interesting... apart from the annoying top-mounted controls, which are pretty much a deal-breaker for me.

I can't stress enough how big a difference having the full control set on the ID makes - without, the amps sound boxy and flat, and the EQ doesn't do a lot at all. With - on the 60 and 260 - I can get some pretty good sounds, although to do that I need both the Presence and Resonance nearly full up... but they are far more powerful and effective than the actual EQ.

longjaw

ecc83 said:

robmac5150 said:

57Deluxe said:

is just me?? but Blackstar started out really interesting and soon escalated into marketeering endless products rather than building a dedicated user base based upon a quality of tone and performance

I had the AC15 type one. incredibly bright as I remember. Didn't stay long....

Do you mean the Artisan 15? If so the circuitry is rather different to the Vox apart from valves. Bright? ICBM usually condems most Blackstars as on the dull side.

Mind you, there was an Artisan 30 went to review with a cap wrong and that had an extended HF response. Such cockups do happen.

Dave.

I have an Artisan 15 combo and love it.

It is bright if you're playing it in the house but it sits perfectly in the mix when used with a band.

darthed1981

New fact identified...

On the two smaller amps without a physical presence/resonance control you can adjust them by holding TAP and turning other knobs...

ICBM

darthed1981 said:

New fact identified...

On the two smaller amps without a physical presence/resonance control you can adjust them by holding TAP and turning other knobs...

Ah, now that is really useful. I don't think that feature was on the older models.

Have they fixed the backwards ISF control yet?

longi

ICBM said:

darthed1981 said:

New fact identified...

On the two smaller amps without a physical presence/resonance control you can adjust them by holding TAP and turning other knobs...

Ah, now that is really useful. I don't think that feature was on the older models.

Have they fixed the backwards ISF control yet?

Yes that feature was on the older models too except for the resonance if I remember correctly. Well middle and presence just to clarify.

darthed1981

The real question is....

For just over £400 you can have a Silverline 50w or an HT5R Mk 2...

Which is better?  I'd like to AB them, actually might go do so on my lunch break tomorrow.

darthed1981

Right, so I went and tried the Silverline 100w for a good twenty mins...

The Good...

Still find lovely airy sounds there, and so, so many wildly different tones you can just dial from the control panel.  I agree with @ICBM you probably need the ability (either directly or with the tap function, so on any model) to dial the presence and resonance - they do stuff.

Easy to dial all kinds of different tones.  FX easy to dial but not the instant hit of cool you get with a Katana.

The Bad...

They need volume to get the air and response - this amp wants to be cranked, so is likely to be no better than an ID Core 20 at whisper volume, and it could really do with a Katana style power soak.

The master volume tapers a bit badly, and you dont get the drive to push the crunch and super crunch channels to, well, crunch at low volumes.

So for me, the sweet spot of the range, as a mostly home player, is decidedly NOT the 100w.

Perhaps next step.,.. AB the HT5R Mk2 and the Silverline 20w or 50w...

impmann

darthed1981 said:

Right, so I went and tried the Silverline 100w for a good twenty mins...

The Good...

Still find lovely airy sounds there, and so, so many wildly different tones you can just dial from the control panel.  I agree with @ICBM you probably need the ability (either directly or with the tap function, so on any model) to dial the presence and resonance - they do stuff.

Easy to dial all kinds of different tones.  FX easy to dial but not the instant hit of cool you get with a Katana.

The Bad...

They need volume to get the air and response - this amp wants to be cranked, so is likely to be no better than an ID Core 20 at whisper volume, and it could really do with a Katana style power soak.

The master volume tapers a bit badly, and you dont get the drive to push the crunch and super crunch channels to, well, crunch at low volumes.

So for me, the sweet spot of the range, as a mostly home player, is decidedly NOT the 100w.

Perhaps next step.,.. AB the HT5R Mk2 and the Silverline 20w or 50w...

Mate... 100w amp at home? Yes, some do it but honestly its like having a Ferrari for the school run...

Try an HT20 Mk2, chap - seriously good amp, loud enough to gig but you can use it at low volume.

darthed1981

impmann said:

Mate... 100w amp at home? Yes, some do it but honestly its like having a Ferrari for the school run...

Try an HT20 Mk2, chap - seriously good amp, loud enough to gig but you can use it at low volume.

Yeah the smaller HTs look like a good potential candidate, the new HT5R goes down as low as 0.5w with it's power soak so is an obvious candidate for home use with proper tone.

Modellista

A very useful comparison video between the Katana and Silverline 100-watters.



Spoiler alert.

Clean - the Silverline is more scoopy and the Katana has a characteristic lower mid push which I instantly recognised as the Katana house sound.  Perhaps the Silverline is slightly more pleasing here although I'm sure you could EQ the Katana to get rid of the lower mids if you wanted, either using the amp controls or global EQ in the software.  There's hardly anything in it.

Crunch - I didn't like the Silverline at all here, very nasal and lacking in body.  The Katana is certainly fuller in the lower mids, and perhaps a touch of the "digital sheen" I've heard people talk about.  They both sound slightly better after the EQ adjustments.

High gain - again, the Silverline is thinner and more nasal, the Katana being chunkier and sounded very Nuno-like to me, which gets the thumbs-up.  The Silverline had no bottom end to speak of in comparison.

The Silverline is ridiculously compromised on the back panel I/O.  The Katana has an effects loop, line out, power amp in, dual footswitch/expression inputs, headphone out, and a decent sturdy large USB socket.  Unbelievably, the Silverline doesn't have an effects loop, or at least you can turn the line out into a loop, but then you lose line out functionality.  A really significant problem IMHO.  Also the Katana power scaling is very useful and notably absent from the Silverlines.  The USB out on the Silverlines is a shitty mini one rather than the larger, more sturdy printer-type USB out on the Katana.  The Silverline has a single footswitch connection rather than the dual switch/expression on the Katana.

Boss have loaded the K with all their effects, so it's a multi-effects unit as well, whereas it looks like the Silverline has just the basic mod, delay and reverb, although there is no manual available for the Silverline at present so there could be more hidden inside.

The Katana is louder.

Price-wise - through the Silverline range is 20w = £369, 50w = £429, 100w 1x12 = £579, 2x12 100w = £749.  Through the Katana range, 50w = £214, 100w 1x12 = £329, 100w 2x12 = £439.  The Katanas are almost half the price, and if you can find a Mk I, it will genuinely be half the price.

It all got a bit awkward when Rob Chapman obviously vastly preferred the Katana... not easy for Lee Anderton to tread a fine line of diplomacy between both of his brands.

Overall I think the Silverline is going for a slightly awkward middle ground between boutique-style appearance and reduced feature set (in terms of effects and in/out, rather than the multiple power amp simulations), whereas the strength of the Katana always has been and still is a straightfoward super-functional tool to fit into a myriad of different use cases at a more-than-acceptable level of quality.  Apart from the Wife Acceptance Factor, I personally can't see much to advocate choosing the Silverline over the Katana unfortunately, although if the price comes down significantly in due course it's nice to have an alternative to the ubiquitous black box.

I don't want to be too down on Blackstar, I respect them as a UK-based company trying to compete with the mighty Roland corporation, and I realise they're going for a more upmarket segment than Katana.  They do look smarter, I like the chickenhead knobs, and in theory there's more amp sounds inside than the Katana, which the above video doesn't explore.  But they're significantly more expensive, and on the evidence of the above video they don't offer much more for the price.  Indeed I'm a bit worried that they won't sell well and could be a bit of a loss-making exercise for Blackstar.

Grumpyrocker

darthed1981 said:

Right, so I went and tried the Silverline 100w for a good twenty mins...

The Good...

Still find lovely airy sounds there, and so, so many wildly different tones you can just dial from the control panel.  I agree with @ICBM you probably need the ability (either directly or with the tap function, so on any model) to dial the presence and resonance - they do stuff.

Easy to dial all kinds of different tones.  FX easy to dial but not the instant hit of cool you get with a Katana.

The Bad...

They need volume to get the air and response - this amp wants to be cranked, so is likely to be no better than an ID Core 20 at whisper volume, and it could really do with a Katana style power soak.

The master volume tapers a bit badly, and you dont get the drive to push the crunch and super crunch channels to, well, crunch at low volumes.

So for me, the sweet spot of the range, as a mostly home player, is decidedly NOT the 100w.

Perhaps next step.,.. AB the HT5R Mk2 and the Silverline 20w or 50w...

I've got a HT5 MK2 head. It sounds really really good. Better than my Katana 100. It does have a low power mode. Can also be run without a cab for silent headphone playing (with stereo reverb), and has line-out, XLR, and USB outputs. Really fabulous amp for home playing. Proper good crunch.

ennspek

I used to have an HT-5 head and still have a 100w Artisan head. Both were/are excellent. 

darthed1981

Modellista said:

...

Indeed I'm a bit worried that they won't sell well and could be a bit of a loss-making exercise for Blackstar.

Good review I agree with everything you said.

From what they told me in PMT, Blackstar might agree with your last statement.  They only had one of each model in store, with no more until at least January, as the Blackstar rep had told them they were only doing one small batch to see if they sell.

Frankly, to compete with Katana, they need to be cheaper, and probably need some V2 mods as well.

impmann

darthed1981 said:

Modellista said:

...

Indeed I'm a bit worried that they won't sell well and could be a bit of a loss-making exercise for Blackstar.

Good review I agree with everything you said.

From what they told me in PMT, Blackstar might agree with your last statement.  They only had one of each model in store, with no more until at least January, as the Blackstar rep had told them they were only doing one small batch to see if they sell.

Frankly, to compete with Katana, they need to be cheaper, and probably need some V2 mods as well.

That isn't true - at all. Typical salesperson telling the customer what he/she thinks they want to hear. And no rep would *EVER* say such a thing.

Large delivery just arrived in the warehouse, ask me how I know.