10 000 hour rule?

phil_b

I have just come across this theory and it made me a little depressed.

I am a beginner and if I really need 10000 hours practice to get any good it will take me about 30 years at my currant rate. the problem is at nearly 50 years old should I save myself the frustration and just enjoy music played by others as I have done so up until now.

Veganic

Is that the Malcolm Gladwell theory that it takes that amount of practice to be good at a task? It's bollocks. 

We are all different.  And once you get some rudimentary mechanics it can all be down to your ear or taste or something that can't be taught just developed.

Whether you give up or carry on is up to you.  As long as you are getting something out of it and can spare the time keep it up.  My Theory is it helps keep my brain keep going into old age if I make it and my body doesn't give in first but I have done less research than Malcolm 

And even if it were true it is a necessary rather than sufficient condition.  I have played a lot and I am still shit.

Edit:. I think those who are going to be good at guitar seem to get pretty good within three years. Discuss.
 

stephen.wood125

Also to be fair; I'd heard (from Bounce etc) that 10,000 was the amount of work to become "expert" that definition also varies considerably, and as said above even "proficiency" is very much a sliding scale.

If you're enjoying it and progressing I'd say it's also about the journey. Unless you're planning a 10,000 word treatise on the intricacies of Robert Fripp's style then f**k it, keep on keeping on. I reckon if you're putting in an hour a day, you could even look back in a month and appreciate the improvement, never mind 30 years.

Have fun!

mixolyd

Don’t ask me to quote scientific literature on this cos I really can’t be arsed but it’s the feeling of putting in work and making progress that leads to satisfaction and contentment, not the reaching of an end goal.

Put in work, make progress.  Keep doing it over time and you’ll reach and pass milestones like being able to perform, being able to please an audience, being able to play well with other musicians etc.  

The only thing to fear is not having something you can work toward because you’re disabled or have achieved everything you wanted - that’s the terrible situation.

viz

The statement might be true or it might not be true, but either way it completely misses the point of guitar - indeed any art - which is that every second you spend on it repays itself 1000 times through the pleasure and fulfilment it gives you and others unless you play recorder. 

soma1975

Vim Fuego said:

I could play "Stairway To Heaven" when I was 12. Jimmy Page didn't actually write it until he was 22. I think that says quite a lot.

Fuengi

To give Gladwell some credit, the 10,000 hours thing is a little more nuanced and also more of an idea than people often appreciate.

It was a metaphor for understanding that in order to completely master something - chess was their example - it takes a long time. 

mart

And it’s talking about people reaching the absolute top of their game - Beatles, Mozart, Steve Jobs etc.

If, like most of us, your main aim is to enjoy yourself, then that might come after just a few dozen hours, or even after a few minutes depending on your attitude. 

Wazmeister

It is fromOutliers by Malcolm Gladwell - superb book, as are all his podcasts/Audible.

It rings true; either way just work hard and adopt the principles

StanleyAccrington

I've got my 10,000 hours in.....and some more!
 And I'm still a s**t player. I reckon that all you lads and lasses out there who are good guitarists either practice for 12 hours a day...or have been given some natural ability/aptitude from upon high.

Philly_Q

Veganic said:

Edit:. I think those who are going to be good at guitar seem to get pretty good within three years. Discuss. 

Which is every bit as vague a generalisation as the 10,000 hour rule! 

I've been playing for... I was going to say over 30 years but actually it's close to 40.  No idea if I've put in 10,000 hours and I can't really be bothered to try to work it out.  I guess it probably is more than 10,000, even with the minimal practice I actually do.

I'm still shit. 

And as it happens, I probably haven't improved much after that first three years, sad to say - physically I'm more "in control" of the guitar itself, various scales and patterns are firmly locked in my muscle memory, I can probably pick things out somewhat better by ear than I once could.  But I've never learned a repertoire of songs.  And frankly I've never tried hard enough.

I still like to think I could improve relatively quickly if I really put my mind to it, with lessons or well-targeted practice.  Not to virtuoso levels, but I think a significant improvement is do-able.  You don't need to know everything.  I live in London and I see a lot of buskers around the place, some of them have been playing the same three or four songs all day, every day, for years.  It may be all they actually know.  And they haven't got any better.  But it's enough for them.

I say all that as the biggest pessimist you'll ever meet.  I've often thought about packing it in, but I haven't.  Yet.

Branshen

viz said:

The statement might be true or it might not be true, but either way it completely misses the point of guitar - indeed any art - which is that every second you spend on it repays itself 1000 times through the pleasure and fulfilment it gives you and others unless you play recorder. 

Absolute nonsense. Recorder brings people PLENTY OF PLEASURE AND FULFILMENT. Check out how maNy views this awesome recorder video got.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2WH8mHJnhM

Roland

10,000 hours is an indicative number, like 5 a day for fruit and vegetables. Everyone is different, and it also depends how you use your practicing hours. The point is that none of the “get rich quick” methods advertised on the Internet are going to do more then set you on a path, possibly not even the right path. When I taught guitar I used to say that I didn’t teach people how to play guitar, but I did teach them how to learn to play the guitar, the rest was up to them. You can teach people how to do exercises, and what to lookout for, but the actual learning is down to them.

octatonic

Having already had one instrument under my belt (guitar) it took me about 2 years of playing 2-6 hours a day, 5-6 days a week to get to what I would call a decent semi-pro level of being a drummer with a good degree of technique and a large musical vocabulary on the instrument (without necessarily being that flash).
I'd say drums is a harder instrument than guitar.

But that was with a very focussed approach and a very good tutor.
I had a lot more than 10k hours under my belt as a musician/guitarist though.

OP- what do you want to do on the instrument?
Play authentic blues rock? 2-3 years of work
Hard rock/metal? Possibly the same time but usually a lot more repetitive exercises, perhaps a year or two more.
Jazz? 10 years to get decent, but a lifetime to master it.

10k hours is all well and good but actually it is how you practice, not how long you practice for over what period of time.
I know loads of people who have 30 years of playing under their belts but never got out of the most basic pentatonic style playing and not a very good level.
They were unfocussed about what they wanted to achieve, didn't have a series of goals or any real plan.
That is what happens when you do this (or don't do this).

I know people that had a clear idea of what they wanted to achieve and set about achieving that- I'd put myself in that category too. 
My opinion is everyone can get good on the guitar with the right approach and attitude.
The problem is some people simply refuse to adopt the right approach and attitude to do it, or don't know what it takes.
It isn't a lack of ability, sometimes it is a lack of application, sometimes it is laziness, sometimes it is ignorance, sometimes it just isn't important enough to them. 

soma1975

Meh, at 3 years I was very advanced for having played 3 years. At nearly 30 years I am so behind it's unreal!

mart

soma1975 said:

Meh, at 3 years I was very advanced for having played 3 years. At nearly 30 years I am so behind it's unreal!

Same for me. After over 30 years of playing I’m about at the level you’d expect of someone who’d been playing for 3 years.

Philly_Q

mart said:

soma1975 said:

Meh, at 3 years I was very advanced for having played 3 years. At nearly 30 years I am so behind it's unreal!

Same for me. After over 30 years of playing I’m about at the level you’d expect of someone who’d been playing for 3 years.

Hmmm, this seems to be a common pattern...

viz

Branshen said:

viz said:

The statement might be true or it might not be true, but either way it completely misses the point of guitar - indeed any art - which is that every second you spend on it repays itself 1000 times through the pleasure and fulfilment it gives you and others unless you play recorder. 

Absolute nonsense. Recorder brings people PLENTY OF PLEASURE AND FULFILMENT. Check out how maNy views this awesome recorder video got.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2WH8mHJnhM

Omg I take it back!

Barney

I don't believe any of that ...it's more down to how you practise and what you practise than the amount of hours ..

Lestratcaster

I think there's some truth in it, but they key factor is what you're a doing in that practice hour. If its focused and structured practice then putting in the hours will help.

I studied for 4 years on the guitar to degree level and I put in a lot of hours per day to get there, up to 5-6 hours. Compare that with a weekly learner and they're only really "properly playing" for an hour per week.

wizbit81

Phil mate don't obsess about how long it takes to be any good at anything. The thing is, the better you get the more you realise you know nothing. If you think about a target as being as poorly defined as 'being any good' you will probably never achieve it. Even Allan Holdsworth thought he was rubbish! The thing to do is decide what YOU want out of playing guitar. Do you want to learn campfire strummy songs for parties etc? Do you wanna learn songs you like for home enjoyment? Do you wanna gig rock? Metal? Jazz? Each of these will have a series of waypoints as you progress that you can tick off. Don't worry about how long it takes to get to where you're going, everyone has different speeds, methods etc. Just decide on what you want and ENJOY getting there, at your own pace! It's a bit like a solo scientific pursuit in your own lab every day. Or you can spend decades being crippled by deciding you're not good enough/aren't progressing fast enough, that Gary from down the street is better after 2 years than you are after 4, that you can't sweep pick after 20 mins of trying etc etc. That way lies madness, unhappiness, and actually hating playing the instrument you love. Hope this advice sticks with you, because it's really important.