Modes - sorry but need advice

JontyPiper

Hi everyone I'm new here and this is my first post. I realise there must be tons of stuff written on the subject but would like to hear what you guys have to say on this subject. A bit about myself: I used to play guitar but stopped around 12 years ago, I always struggled with theory - I struggle with maths too so make of that what you will. Anyway I have had a yearning to pick the guitar back up as I love blues/rock guitar. This time around I want to know more about the theory side, not to become an expert but just to help. So I started watching some of Rob Chapman's videos on YouTube about modes. A lot of the way he approached it made sense but then I got really confused, I've left a comment on the video but nobody has responded. Basically his approach is to have his bottom e string playing open as a drone then plays an E Ionian scale from the E note of the A string, which I get as you can hear the scales' notes that make it what it is. He then drops the same scale shape down an whole tone to D and says it's Dorian, when he plays through the scale over the drone again you hear how it has those unique qualities to it that make it 'dorian'. What I struggle with it this. I thought that Ionian was your starting point, then in an ascending pattern Dorian was next, but following that it would make the Dorian in this instance F#? He says you'd expect the root note on this Dorian to be its starting note which is D but it's not it's E and that's what gives it that flavour so to speak. Can anyone shed some light as I'm making progress then hitting a brick wall, sorry if this has been covered but wanted to ask specifically about the inf in this video - here's a link and sorry for waffling!

Lestratcaster

Each mode is either a major or minor meaning the 3rd note is usually a flattened interval, Dorian is a minor mode with a flat 3rd so the note should be an F if you start on D.

The way I think of modes is the intervals within it, plus its parent key. If E Ionian is basically a major scale, but if he dropped it down a tone it can't be Dorian cos the intervals aren't from that mode.

I find it best to start with the key of C major, which is basically Ionian. Then if you play the same scale starting from the second note you get Dorian, the 3rd note Phrygian, 4th Lydian, etc etc. So you're playing the same scale but starting on a different note.

Danny1969

It's a lot easier to understand if you just view a mode as a scale ... which effectively it is. It's just a mode is a scale where the normal notes have been changed. 

There is no starting point, it's simply about the distance between notes so 

C major notes are 

C - D - E - F - G -A - B - C

Happy sound scale

Now we change a few notes and call it C dorian , we've gonna flatten 2 notes in the scale 

C -D - Eb - F - G - A - Bb - C

Now we have Bluesy sounding scale


The Phrydian mode is a real mutation of our normal scale  ........  C phrygian notes are 

C - Db  - Eb - F - G - Ab - Bb - C

This mode sounds a bit eastern ... think Misirlou form Pulp Fiction 

Then there's another 4 but you get the idea ..... you can view all as scales that have been mutated to sound different. One of them is the minor scale but called the Aeolion mode


Now here's the clever bit all you need to remember in order to use the modes is to know your basic major scales and know which scale to play over the song scale in order to get the flavour. 

D dorian contains exactly the same notes as C major .... so if you want to go all dorian over a backing track in D use D as your tonic or root note but play the notes from C major when solo'ing 

It is a more complex subject because the more you learn the more you realize how everything fits together but to begin with just think of a mode as a normal scale that's been altered to sound  a bit strange to our western ears. 

EricTheWeary

JontyPiper said:

Hi everyone I'm new here and this is my first post. I realise there must be tons of stuff written on the subject but would like to hear what you guys have to say on this subject. A bit about myself: I used to play guitar but stopped around 12 years ago, I always struggled with theory - I struggle with maths too so make of that what you will. Anyway I have had a yearning to pick the guitar back up as I love blues/rock guitar. This time around I want to know more about the theory side, not to become an expert but just to help. So I started watching some of Rob Chapman's videos on YouTube about modes. A lot of the way he approached it made sense but then I got really confused, I've left a comment on the video but nobody has responded. Basically his approach is to have his bottom e string playing open as a drone then plays an E Ionian scale from the E note of the A string, which I get as you can hear the scales' notes that make it what it is. He then drops the same scale shape down an whole tone to D and says it's Dorian, when he plays through the scale over the drone again you hear how it has those unique qualities to it that make it 'dorian'. What I struggle with it this. I thought that Ionian was your starting point, then in an ascending pattern Dorian was next, but following that it would make the Dorian in this instance F#? He says you'd expect the root note on this Dorian to be its starting note which is D but it's not it's E and that's what gives it that flavour so to speak. Can anyone shed some light as I'm making progress then hitting a brick wall, sorry if this has been covered but wanted to ask specifically about the inf in this video - here's a link and sorry for waffling!

I haven’t watched the video but it makes sense. So you’d start playing the Ionian from the 7th fret on the A against the E string drone. Then drop that shape down to the 5th fret which would give you E Dorian against the open E string. However, it will start on the D which is the 7th in that mode. You’d then go down to the 3rd fret which is E Phrygian against the open E but starting on the 6th of the scale. Then 2nd fret for for Lydian starting on the 5th of the scale and the open A which is mixolydian starting on the 4th of the scale. Nowhere to go then but the idea is to hear the sounds of the modes in E rather than hear the modes of E. 

[ doing this without a guitar to hand but I think that’s right, I might double check later!]

sev112

Yes, but the OP’s  asking you why ! He knows all that already!

And hence why the myths about modes continues because no one will answer the man’s simple question, but instead go off into all sorts of other complex stuff.

To OP
the reason you drop down is because Dorian is the second mode ( I Don’t Particulalry Like Modes A Lot is the order in Mnemonic form)

So you want to play Dorian, and you want to play it in E.  Knowing that Dorian is the second mode, then the E note will be the second note in the scale you play. So if E is the second note, counting back, the D must be the first note.
so you play a D major scale over the E drone gives you the Dorian Sound in E.

helps if you actually plays the (Dmaj) scale notes starting and ending the phrasing on E notes, otherwise it will just sound like a D major DO RE MI scale !

hope that helps a little bit.  I’m in danger of being foiled by my own petard or whatever the phrase is.

good luck

Roland

Modes are a way of theorising about notes in a piece of music which conforms to the Western tempered 12 note scale. Some of us find the theory of modes useful. Some don’t. Part of the confusion about them is that there are two different approaches to describing modes. 

One method keeps the same root note, but changes some of the other notes in the scale. This is the approach which @Danny1969 describes. Start with a major scale and flatten the 7th to get a mixolydian, then flatten the 3rd to get a minor scale. 

The other method observes that you can get the same effect by sticking with the eight notes in the major scale, but starting each modal scale on a different root note. This is what @sev112 describes. For example, taking the notes in the C major scale and starting on A gives the A minor scale. Taking the same notes, but starting on G, gives the G mixolydian.

It’s important to remember that modes not hard and fast rules for what you can and can’t play. They are only a method of describing what you have played. They are a bit like spelling rules such as “I before E except after C”. Useful, but not universally true. Most guitarists break the rules on modes. We bend notes away from the tempered 12 note scale. We insert passing notes which don’t fit in a modal scale. 

JontyPiper

Hey thanks everyone for your responses, I'm definitely going to do more researching as I'm not someone who can play 'by ear' alone, I need to know where something is going. Thanks for taking the time people

stratman3142

C.f.JontyPiper said:
...Basically his approach is to have his bottom e string playing open as a drone then plays an E Ionian scale from the E note of the A string, which I get as you can hear the scales' notes that make it what it is. He then drops the same scale shape down an whole tone to D and says it's Dorian, when he plays through the scale over the drone again you hear how it has those unique qualities to it that make it 'dorian'. What I struggle with it this. I thought that Ionian was your starting point, then in an ascending pattern Dorian was next, but following that it would make the Dorian in this instance F#? He says you'd expect the root note on this Dorian to be its starting note which is D but it's not it's E and that's what gives it that flavour so to speak. Can anyone shed some light as I'm making progress then hitting a brick wall...

Not sure if this helps. If you play the notes of E major (Ionian) but start on F# as the root note then you'd be playing F# Dorian. In this example you want to be playing E Dorian, which is a group of notes that's equivalent to starting on the second degree of the D major (Ionian) scale.

In this example the start (root) note is fixed (i.e. E) and the pattern of notes shifts. Not the other way around.

Hootsmon

.

pintspiller

To me the modes were just other scales related to major scale like the way the minor scale is related and therefore just another shape or position to play the major scale.

A bit like CAGED.

greejn

This won't make me popular, but....some of the best jazz players have no time for modes and modal theory. Personally I find the whole concept pretty useless for a number of reasons, just forget it! I'm off to take cover...

Gulliver

JontyPiper said:

He says you'd expect the root note on this Dorian to be its starting note which is D but it's not it's E and that's what gives it that flavour so to speak. Can anyone shed some light as I'm making progress then hitting a brick wall, sorry if this has been covered but wanted to ask specifically about the inf in this video - here's a link and sorry for waffling!

OK - quick answer to this then a suggestion.

E dorian and D Major are the same notes, it's just the context you use them in that matters. 

For example if your chords are E, A and B - you can play E major(Ionian) over it with no issues. 
If your Chords are F#m, B major and C#m - you can use the same E major scale, but with F#m being the 'home' chord, it will feel more like F# Dorian.


That said, the principle Chappers is getting at is solid - learning the sound of each mode helps with knowing what flavour you want especially when improvising. However, personally coming from a blues/rock background when I did my music degree - I found learning modes pretty pointless without some familiar context.  So I learned my modes as minor and major pentatonics with 2 extra notes added (except Locrian which just sounds terrible and has a b5)

A Dorian is A minor pentatonic with added B and F#  (Very Santana vibe)
A Phyrigian is A Minor pentatonic with a Bb and F added  (dark, spanish-y vibe)
A Aoelian is A minor pentatonic with B and F added (the natural minor scale)

A Mixolydian is A Major pentatonic with a D and G added  (pretty bluesy feel)
A Lydian is A Major pentatonic with a D# and G# added  (Steve Vai loves lydian)
A Ionian is A Major pentatonic with a D and G# added  (major scale)


This approach for me, makes it easy to use them to add 'flavour' to a blues solo - based on what I wanted at that time. 

Roland

greejn said:

This won't make me popular, but....some of the best jazz players have no time for modes and modal theory. Personally I find the whole concept pretty useless for a number of reasons, just forget it! I'm off to take cover...

Yes, I find them a distraction. 

drofluf

@stratman3142 thanks that made it clear to me at least have some wisdom!

JontyPiper

Again thanks a lot to everyone who's contributed and tried to shed some light. Something I did read last night made a lot of sense, it's really about understanding the tonal centre in which you are playing, because really why a scale may start on a different degree than another scale ultimately you've still only got the same notes but understanding that some add to the flavour of what is happening whereas some would ruin the flavour entirely. I think I may well need to understand things on a more basic level before trying to understand more complex things, obviously to some it's not complex but you don't expect a child to understand grammar and punctuation before it knows how to speak and read. Thanks again and hope you're having a good day

greejn

Also, if you concentrate instead on the chord tones you are playing over, it's simpler and you can avoid the wandering up and down scales business, which never works well.

Barney

greejn said:

This won't make me popular, but....some of the best jazz players have no time for modes and modal theory. Personally I find the whole concept pretty useless for a number of reasons, just forget it! I'm off to take cover...

I agree ...you shouldn't have to be limited by a group of notes and should be able to start and finish on any.. although modes can be good for film music and stuff...I'm not a big fan I prefer arps/chord tones ..

A easy way to look at modes though is play a major scale in any position just a standard scale as c maj A string 3rd fret and look at all the intervals and as you are playing each note of the scales say the mode ...then work backwards ...so A note on G string 2nd fret is aeolian..so to take to parent scale take it back to c maj....

5 th degree is G mixolydian...again look at the interval and and take it back to C Maj parent scale ...

Take aeolian on 5th fret G string that would be C ..back to the Maj parent scale in Eb

Eventually it's better looking at how they sound like off the the root notes...

Hope this makes sense it's hard to explain without a guitar and making things visual 

roberty

I don't fixate on them either but it's useful to be able to categorise the different types of scales, eg this is a minor scale with a flat sixth, or a major with sharp or natural seventh etc. Knowing the names of the modes can make it easier to communicate with other musicians, assuming they also know the names

hawk_eye

I found this Guthrie Govan idea to be really useful. It focuses on adding modal sounds to major & minor pentatonics, so you can experiment and find musical ways to make the modal 'colours' work for you. Oh, and don't be put off by the widdly intro...

https://youtu.be/OkaqfgSqtHg

JontyPiper

Thanks hawk_eye I'll give it a watch. 

I was saying to my wife earlier, it reminds me of when I couldn't tell the time using a clock, people would give me their take on it thinking the penny would drop, I just haven't yet seen or heard anything that makes me understand it properly, I'll get there. And thanks again people.

close2u

sev112 said:

Yes, but the OP’s  asking you why ! ...

...
the reason you drop down is because Dorian is the second mode ...

So you want to play Dorian, and you want to play it in E.  Knowing that Dorian is the second mode, then the E note will be the second note in the scale you play. So if E is the second note, counting back, the D must be the first note.
so you play a D major scale over the E drone gives you the Dorian Sound in E.

helps if you actually plays the (Dmaj) scale notes starting and ending the phrasing on E notes, otherwise it will just sound like a D major DO RE MI scale !

This does answer the question in the OP and raises the major flaw in the approach of Rob Chapman's video. Besides it having about 6 minutes of waffle in a 7 minute video.

Dropping the one octave shape back a tone is not helpful at revealing how the modes are 7-note scales each with different intervallic patterns from root to 7th all the way up to octave root.

I have linked these two videos previously and think them superior to Chapman's at hearing and understanding what modes are / do / sound like.