Acoustic Shape/Wood Combo Recomendations

dean111music

Quote from an email 

Yes Cedar is a very soft, warm wood, you could perceive it as being quieter, whereas Spruce is brash, bold very loud. Redwood to me is a healthy balance of both, its sits between cedar and spruce tonally and for that reason is popular on the higher end models as it only available in the 35 and 50 series.

 

You can see why an instrumental soloist would prefer spruce as it gives them lots of projection and separation but like a said this might be abit too much when accompanying a singer.

dean111music

So would cedar/ rosewood be a bigger bolder sound than cedar/ walnut? 

Cedar rosewood in the middle ground?

as I say lutz spruce and bog oak is great sound 

https://youtu.be/PJDiXsBR9_I

dean111music

This is the nicest sounding vid!

Best tone. 

Although it’s breaking up
https://youtu.be/ykVXuLSubQQ

dean111music

https://youtu.be/ViHQw_8KZDQ

best of all worlds ?

cedar/rosewood

GTC

dean111music said:

I have read also that redwood tonally sits between cedar and spruce so this seems like the perfect top for me

then a rosewood or walnut for the back. 

I would agree with the comment that cedar for a top sits between redwood and spruce. I've a couple of cedar topped guitars and one redwood and the redwood (with bog oak back and sides) has a much smoother velvety tone. Redwood takes more playing than spruce or cedar to open up

Kalimna

That brazillian is a stunning looking guitar. Not often you see ripple figure in either rosewoods or mahogany - but that has both. Subtle, and classy.

Adam

artiebear

@dean111music has opened up really good discussion, with some excellent comments and opinions from all. These debates go on ad infinitum across acoustic discussion boards as well as between players and builders with regard to wood combos. The great thing is that there are as many opinions are there are individual guitars based wood choice, our ear, our style, but very fundamentally the builders philosophy and knowledge ( eg George Lowden made his name on Cedar topped guitars, prefers redwood and cedar, but builds and designs stellar Spruce guitars, while Stefan Sobell, a man a the high  end of the sole luthier game will build with Cedar, but his signature is stellar Adirondack, European and Sitka topped guitars. They are both superb builders with radically different approaches, and paradoxically they are both right ).
As soon as we get to a stage where we think we have categorised such things, a guitar will come along to prove that there are no rules just guidelines. The only Lowden I have now is a 20 year old O32, which has been toured and played on and off throughout that time. I got the itch for both cedar and redwood Lowden since that time, and ended up buying a selling some lovely guitars, simply because I found that a played in run of the mill sitka top guitar that had been well played has more dynamics, harmonic content and smoothness. Maybe that's getting into a whole different area, but if it's a guitar you intend to grow with, keep how it will develop as part of the equation.

I think as @ToneControl says it's critical get get hands on with as many guitars as possible, ideally in a place where you can feel comfortable even to make notes of your reactions as you pick up each one, it gives you something to objectively refer back to.

ToneControl

dean111music said:

Quote from an email 

Yes Cedar is a very soft, warm wood, you could perceive it as being quieter, whereas Spruce is brash, bold very loud. Redwood to me is a healthy balance of both, its sits between cedar and spruce tonally and for that reason is popular on the higher end models as it only available in the 35 and 50 series.

 

You can see why an instrumental soloist would prefer spruce as it gives them lots of projection and separation but like a said this might be abit too much when accompanying a singer.

I have guitars with spruce, cedar and redwood, I'm not sure why anyone would consider redwood as between the other 2, unless the redwood they were using were unusual. On my guitars, spruce sounds scooped, redwood has the most mids

btw, I've heard that redwood is more variable in acoustic responses, so needs more checking before using a piece in a guitar.
When the candidate pieces were tap-tested in front of me, there were huge differences amongst the sinker redwood pieces

btw All of this will also be affected by whether you play with plectrums, picks, skin or nails

ToneControl

dean111music said:

This is the nicest sounding vid!

Best tone. 

Although it’s breaking up
https://youtu.be/ykVXuLSubQQ

do you play with a pick?
I'd advise avoiding adirondack if you play with nails, it needs hitting hard to move the wood

ToneControl

dean111music said:

https://youtu.be/ViHQw_8KZDQ

best of all worlds ?

cedar/rosewood

I would not recommend redwood as the choice for the first and only top-end guitar for a player
but I would recommend cedar rosewood (unless the player was mostly a heavy-plectrum player)

artiebear

ToneControl said:

dean111music said:

This is the nicest sounding vid!

Best tone. 

Although it’s breaking up
https://youtu.be/ykVXuLSubQQ

do you play with a pick?
I'd advise avoiding adirondack if you play with nails, it needs hitting hard to move the wood

Then again, my Sobell is Adirondack / braz, is as responsive as it gets, and I haven't used a plectrum on it in the 12 years I've had it, plus that's not been my experience with 000 and smaller Adi guitars by Martin and Collings. As i said earlier there are no absolutes. Also check out a Lowden Pierre Bensusan sig model ( Adi / Honduran rosewood ) I've been lucky enough to spend extended time with two of them and am still very tempted to get one for myself they are wonderful finger style guitars.

ToneControl

artiebear said:

ToneControl said:

dean111music said:

This is the nicest sounding vid!

Best tone. 

Although it’s breaking up
https://youtu.be/ykVXuLSubQQ

do you play with a pick?
I'd advise avoiding adirondack if you play with nails, it needs hitting hard to move the wood

Then again, my Sobell is Adirondack / braz, is as responsive as it gets, and I haven't used a plectrum on it in the 12 years I've had it, plus that's not been my experience with 000 and smaller Adi guitars by Martin and Collings. As i said earlier there are no absolutes. Also check out a Lowden Pierre Bensusan sig model ( Adi / Honduran rosewood ) I've been lucky enough to spend extended time with two of them and am still very tempted to get one for myself they are wonderful finger style guitars.

interesting, I've had 2 Adi-topped guitars, found it hard to get the full sound out of them with my nails
Reading around, it's a stiffer wood, and harder to make work for fingerstyle, especially on larger-bodied guitars

artiebear

ToneControl said:

artiebear said:

ToneControl said:

dean111music said:

This is the nicest sounding vid!

Best tone. 

Although it’s breaking up
https://youtu.be/ykVXuLSubQQ

do you play with a pick?
I'd advise avoiding adirondack if you play with nails, it needs hitting hard to move the wood

Then again, my Sobell is Adirondack / braz, is as responsive as it gets, and I haven't used a plectrum on it in the 12 years I've had it, plus that's not been my experience with 000 and smaller Adi guitars by Martin and Collings. As i said earlier there are no absolutes. Also check out a Lowden Pierre Bensusan sig model ( Adi / Honduran rosewood ) I've been lucky enough to spend extended time with two of them and am still very tempted to get one for myself they are wonderful finger style guitars.

interesting, I've had 2 Adi-topped guitars, found it hard to get the full sound out of them with my nails
Reading around, it's a stiffer wood, and harder to make work for fingerstyle, especially on larger-bodied guitars

I get what your saying, an new Adi topped dread |(trying to get that pre war vibe ) is going to take some moving as Adi takes a while to open ( the very opposite end of the scale from Englemann, which some unscrupulous wood dealers passed off as European to unsuspecting builders ). I think that in Stefan Sobell case, even though my guitar is a 16" lower bout and a 25.6 " scale length, it's about his very individual approach to bracing which produces a quite accentuated arch across the top ( andd the back for that matter, almost like a skin stretched across a snare. Subsequently, it can purr with 12's on it, but still work as a finger style power house with 13's on.
In George's case,, his bracing designs and, like Stefan and all top builders a respect for the wood they are using. Interestingly, the fact that George designed Bensusan's newer Adi sig model as an F sized guitar, rather than Pierre's cedar topped O size "old lady", would suggest that he goes along with smaller works better for Adi within his design parameters. If you get a chance  try the PB sig, would be interesting to know what you think.

dean111music

https://youtu.be/ApqAcE5zL94

I think in this video he said it took a lot of playing and 2 years to open up 

dean111music

I wonder if George would build him a cedar/Blackwood this time 

artiebear

dean111music said:

https://youtu.be/ApqAcE5zL94

I think in this video he said it took a lot of playing and 2 years to open up 

I would imagine that it was quite an effort for him to adapt after playing his cedar/mahogany old lady since at least early 80's. Having seen him play live a few times, It would be interesting to get his specific definition of opening up, as I have never seen anyone so physically involved in his instrument, one minute almost hugging it to dampen certain frequencies to really snapping back on the strings to get the most. Wonderful player and a really nice guy. The PB sigs I had time with were both played in, but less than 18 months old, they were certainly getting there, however, it would be great to see how they continue to develop. I would say that a couple of years is fair for any spruce topped guitar, however, it will go on changing for a long long time beyond that. My adi  / braz Sobell has changed a lot over the 12 years or so I have been playing it, not so much in volume and Dynamics but more in a shift to slightly high mids while keeping a round treble and defined bass. 

dean111music

So I think I need to try as many wood combos as possible however im leaning now towards either Cedar/rosewood or walnut  or a spruce/rosewood.

im deciding that lowden is my best bet as there are so many around and I have always loved them. Eric Roche taught me at ACM and to hear his lowden for the first time was a very memorable moment.

lowden S or F shape, bevel or FM.
need to go and try

artiebear

dean111music said:

So I think I need to try as many wood combos as possible however im leaning now towards either Cedar/rosewood or walnut  or a spruce/rosewood.

im deciding that lowden is my best bet as there are so many around and I have always loved them. Eric Roche taught me at ACM and to hear his lowden for the first time was a very memorable moment.

lowden S or F shape, bevel or FM.
need to go and try

Sounds good, Eric is a big miss to the guitar scene.

ToneControl

artiebear said:

dean111music said:

https://youtu.be/ApqAcE5zL94

I think in this video he said it took a lot of playing and 2 years to open up 

I would imagine that it was quite an effort for him to adapt after playing his cedar/mahogany old lady since at least early 80's. Having seen him play live a few times, It would be interesting to get his specific definition of opening up, as I have never seen anyone so physically involved in his instrument, one minute almost hugging it to dampen certain frequencies to really snapping back on the strings to get the most. Wonderful player and a really nice guy. The PB sigs I had time with were both played in, but less than 18 months old, they were certainly getting there, however, it would be great to see how they continue to develop. I would say that a couple of years is fair for any spruce topped guitar, however, it will go on changing for a long long time beyond that. My adi  / braz Sobell has changed a lot over the 12 years or so I have been playing it, not so much in volume and Dynamics but more in a shift to slightly high mids while keeping a round treble and defined bass. 

btw, in case anyone didn't hear the story, I heard that the initial commercial success of Lowden was based on PB playing one, and other people wanting them  because of that. 

dean111music

So far I have these recommendations from luthiers and experiences

spruce/mahogany - best to hear percussive sounds, pickups well, sensitive to dynamics 

cedar/walnut - most clarity for fingerstyle 

redwood/Blackwood - best all rounder for warmth and clarity 

spruce/rosewood - most versatile, has bold sound than can work well with vocals and solo guitar, good headroom for flat picking, Deeper bass and metallic Highs compared to spruce/mahogany