Floyd Rose woes

mynameistrouble

Hi

I have a jackson kelly KE5FR, which has a Floyd Rose FRT-O2000 tremelo. I have been having issues with tuning stability which i had put down to some wear on the knife edges.

I took it to my local guitar tech to have it properly set up and the knife edges sharpened (which was specifically asked for and charged). They gave it back saying there were no issues. 

I have been playing it and continue to have tuning issues. I’ll go through the process of tuning until perfect with the nut open, locking and then fine tuning again. One song later and every string is a quarter step down with only light tremelo use.

Before i go back and start making noises about being ripped off i want to make sure that it’s not something benign. I have no experience with floyds and have only ever had hard tail guitars. What I can’t work out is whether, with new strings, you still need to stretch them like you do on a regular guitar - i just changed strings on my firebird with locking steinberger gearless tuners and still had to pull and stretch the strings loads before it stayed stable so i suspect there’s a similar settling in process even with double locking. But when i try to stretch on the floyd by pulling the string up it ends up popping out of the bridge slot.

Any help would be much appreciated!

many thanks 
Richard

ICBM

If the strings are popping out of the bridge clamp then the clamps are not done up tightly enough. That will most likely be the problem.

webrthomson

You do still need to stretch the strings as you would on a hard tail guitar as well.

Also if the trem if fully floating when you are changing the strings you need to block the trem in position when you are swapping the strings - I pop an allen key under mine.

mynameistrouble

webrthomson said:

You do still need to stretch the strings as you would on a hard tail guitar as well.

Also if the trem if fully floating when you are changing the strings you need to block the trem in position when you are swapping the strings - I pop an allen key under mine.

Just so I’m clear on this, you mean stretching once everything is locked in, right? And I should be able to do this without the strings popping out of the bridge if everything is properly secured?

andy_k

this vid should explain everything----

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ums1cdg6r6M

sw67

I have a ibanez rg that i picked up last year on ebay for a bargain price and while it played great it always returned a bit flat with trem use. Putting new stronger springs on helped a lot but what did the trick was a trem stopper (I dont pull up on the trem ) it took 5 mins to install and its in perfect tune after heavy trem use now

skullfunkerry

I usually change the strings one at a time and tune as I go so that I don't have to spend ages re-levelling the trem. I give the strings a good pull (just with my fingers, and at several different points along the string) to give it a good stretch.

Once all the strings are changes and stretched I'll go back and make sure everything's in tune, then I generally put the locking nut clamps back on but just barely finger tight, play the guitar for a few minutes (including a few pullups on the trem), and retune.

Usually I'll leave the nut unlocked for a couple of days, and then lock it all down when everything has settled

webrthomson

mynameistrouble said:

webrthomson said:

You do still need to stretch the strings as you would on a hard tail guitar as well.

Also if the trem if fully floating when you are changing the strings you need to block the trem in position when you are swapping the strings - I pop an allen key under mine.

Just so I’m clear on this, you mean stretching once everything is locked in, right? And I should be able to do this without the strings popping out of the bridge if everything is properly secured?

Stretch before you lock the top nut you need to get any movement in the strings out and once you have locked the nut you can't compensate and re-tune correctly.

At no point should the string be able to pop out of the trem, if that is happening you need to tighten the blocks a little more. You can test this by pulling the string once locked into the trem, if it comes out its not tight enough

EDIT: The other thing I do is tune the guitar roughly to pitch (remove the allen key) then tune the strings from the outside in, in pairs - so low E and high E, then A and B, then D and G. Works for me

FelineGuitars

OK - what string gauge, what tuning and how many springs are you using ?

Can we have a pic of the springs at rest please 

It may well be that you have too many springs or your springs are too close to being fully compressed at rest , which is a way bigger cause of non return to pitch than people realise

You are better off with fewer springs stretched harder than having too many not really stretched 

DLM

mynameistrouble said:

webrthomson said:

You do still need to stretch the strings as you would on a hard tail guitar as well.

Also if the trem if fully floating when you are changing the strings you need to block the trem in position when you are swapping the strings - I pop an allen key under mine.

Just so I’m clear on this, you mean stretching once everything is locked in, right? And I should be able to do this without the strings popping out of the bridge if everything is properly secured?

Yes. Though I start the stretching process before locking up at the nut. One does have to be careful not to overtighten the string locks at the bridge, though: you'll see a lot of people who've destroyed a saddle unit this way and had to replace it.  

gusman2x

To set up correctly, this is the only way I've found that works.


Block the trem (front or back). So the angle of the bridge needs to be correct, and I normally use a deck of playing cards jammed in between the trem cavity on the  back, and the sustain block. You can also do it by placing cards or a battery under the bridge on the front. I like the back as it's less likely to damage the finish. It's important to make sure the claw holding the springs is level with the cavity. i.e, it's not tighter/closer to the body on one side.

The I tune the guitar normally using the headstock tuners. If I've taken enough tension of the springs (as I'm doing it from the back), then the bridge does not move. I tune, stretch, tune and then I'm good. 

I remove the cards, the bridge lifts, causing all the strings to go sharp, but by the same amount. I then adjust the trem springs by equal amounts (in my case tightening as I've blocked from the back), and when the bridge gets to the correct angle, the guitar's in tune.

Then lock off the string clamps, and I'm good to go.

If you block off the trem at the front of the guitar, then the adjustment of the spring tension is the opposite.

MelodicLydian

gusman2x said:

To set up correctly, this is the only way I've found that works.


Block the trem (front or back). So the angle of the bridge needs to be correct, and I normally use a deck of playing cards jammed in between the trem cavity on the  back, and the sustain block. You can also do it by placing cards or a battery under the bridge on the front. I like the back as it's less likely to damage the finish. It's important to make sure the claw holding the springs is level with the cavity. i.e, it's not tighter/closer to the body on one side.

The I tune the guitar normally using the headstock tuners. If I've taken enough tension of the springs (as I'm doing it from the back), then the bridge does not move. I tune, stretch, tune and then I'm good. 

I remove the cards, the bridge lifts, causing all the strings to go sharp, but by the same amount. I then adjust the trem springs by equal amounts (in my case tightening as I've blocked from the back), and when the bridge gets to the correct angle, the guitar's in tune.

Then lock off the string clamps, and I'm good to go.

If you block off the trem at the front of the guitar, then the adjustment of the spring tension is the opposite.

That is my technique too when changing string gauge or using a drop tuning. Once setup as long as you use the same strings each time and change them one by one you can safely leave it after that. In fact on my various Ibanez Edge variants the guitars are typically in tune months later. 

It always surprises me using a fixed bridge when the tuning is out having been not used..

gusman2x

This probably describes it better

https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/floyd-rose-setup-guide/

ICBM

MelodicLydian said:

That is my technique too when changing string gauge or using a drop tuning. Once setup as long as you use the same strings each time and change them one by one you can safely leave it after that. In fact on my various Ibanez Edge variants the guitars are typically in tune months later. 

It always surprises me using a fixed bridge when the tuning is out having been not used..

Thermal expansion and contraction of the strings allows them to move slightly over the nut and bridge saddles, so they can then stick out of tune.

Once a Floyd is properly locked, that can't happen - they will still expand and contract, but can't move at either end so they remain in tune once back at the original temperature.

clarkefan

One thing that I found on the internet that helped is to screw the string retainer bar (the one after the nut on the headstock) properly down, so that the strings sit properly on all of the nut, all the way across.

professorben

I change the strings on my Ibanez, stretch them in a bit, lock it down at the nut,  play a bit, stretch them and retune and the lock the nut good to go. 

Whole process takes around 15-20 mins and I barely have to tune my guitar until I change the strings again.

 It’s only big temp changes that can throw it out and I use my Trem A LOT at weekly  rehearsals and gigs. 

I think it sounds like either the clamps at the bridge are worn, or possibly the springs are not having enough travel. 

One of my guitars has 2 springs one has 3. 

Funkfingers

The FR 2000 - and the FR Special before it - uses cast zinc for the string clamp blocks in the saddles. The clamping surface on these is softer than the steel strings. This can lead to pitting in the blocks, reducing their effectiveness. 

Sharpening the knife edges repositions the saddles that little bit closer to the nut clamp, creating the need to reset everything. This task is a major pain. I am not surprised that the shop tech back-heeled that one.

mynameistrouble

Thanks for all the responses.

A few days and much experimentation later I am still having issues. I've stretched the hell out of the strings (which now no longer pop out at the bridge), and I can get it to stay perfectly in tune when I'm just playing normally, but one even vaguely dive-bombish push on the bar and everything goes out. Never the same way. Sometimes the bottom strings go sharp and the top stays in tune, just now the bottom stayed stayed vaguely in tune (A is a bit sharp) and the G-E are very flat. 

String gauge is 9-46 in Eb tuning. Here's a pic of the springs: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ij63odxlt84uoux/unnamed.jpg?dl=0

Am I at the 'storm in and demand an explanation' point yet? Am I kidding myself that a floyd will ever stay in tune and should just block the trem?

FelineGuitars

Okay - try this:

1)Angle two outside springs so they attach on tags 2 and 4 on the claw
2) remove middle spring
3) tighten the two screws that hold the claw until the trem is once again parallel to the body and the guitar is back in tune 

What you are doing is getting the system balance with the springs under as much tension as is available for the string gauge and tuning. The angling in of the springs just helps add a little more tension. 

Give it another try....

mynameistrouble

FelineGuitars said:

no photo showing ......

Should be a dropbox link. How do people normally link photos here?

ICBM

mynameistrouble said:

Thanks for all the responses.

A few days and much experimentation later I am still having issues. I've stretched the hell out of the strings (which now no longer pop out at the bridge), and I can get it to stay perfectly in tune when I'm just playing normally, but one even vaguely dive-bombish push on the bar and everything goes out. Never the same way. Sometimes the bottom strings go sharp and the top stays in tune, just now the bottom stayed stayed vaguely in tune (A is a bit sharp) and the G-E are very flat. 

String gauge is 9-46 in Eb tuning. Here's a pic of the springs: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ij63odxlt84uoux/unnamed.jpg?dl=0

Am I at the 'storm in and demand an explanation' point yet? Am I kidding myself that a floyd will ever stay in tune and should just block the trem?

A properly working Floyd is the most stable of all bridges. You don’t need to block it.

If the strings are going out of tune in different directions it’s slipping at the nut clamps. Do you have them done up tight enough? Do you have them fitted correctly? The ridge on the clamp should be parallel to the strings.