Seems legit. 1959 PAFs

soma1975

If say you'd bought a '59 from some guy that had parted out his rare all white originals with the right DC readings and everything, and you wanted to put some original pickups in there maybe you'd be a bit spendy compared to repros. 

But £20k, so sort of more than double over the going price, for dubious provenance pickups from someone who has already lied on their advert. 

Yeah... Nope. 

OilCityPickups

soma1975 said:

Thanks. Lovely to have someone in the know confirm the statements about PAFs and about his in particular are based on complete fabrications. 

There was never a run of white bobbin PAFs that all measured identically. Which is weird because if he hadn't started down the line of making things up he might have gotten some people interested in them. 

To the best of my knowledge There were never any 'runs' of white bobbin pickups with high DCRs, I am always prepared to be surprised by new discoveries about pickup winding back in the early years, but 'runs' don't fit in with any of the evidence I've gathered myself or that I've obtained from reliable sources. There were evolutionary changes sure, from 59 PAF to transitional 'Patent' pickups, to T Tops, but these occurred as new methods of production came online and old materials and components ran out. Pickups then were not a 'big thing' ... so long as they worked and were within sensible parameters they were put on guitars to get them out to the public. All PAF style pickups were fitted with covers, and there was no reason for Gibson to suspect folks would remove them, therefore white bobbins were a 'feature' that would never be seen. Yes it's theoretically possible that a bunch of white bobbins were over-wound by accident, but it's been suggested by Throwback (who have done a lot of research too)  that through much of the PAF period, slug and screw bobbins were wound on different machines ... which would make that fairly unlikely. I can't say for sure if those pickups are 'messed with' but then I don't have them on my workbench.

I will say that £20,000 is a stupid price to pay for any pickup pair ... and even given that you might consider a genuine PAF set worth the price of a good car ... these have issues regarding provenance which a buyer would have to satisfy himself about by referring to the seller.

danishbacon

Whilst on the subject, @OilCityPickups , it’s my understanding that ‘tired’ magnets are responsible for some of the hollowness of the tone in old pickups. I recently played one of @db1 old Gibsons and the tone of the p90 was something akin to listening it through an old radio. Tone from beyond. Does this have to do with weaker magnets and is there any way of artificially replicating this?

OilCityPickups

danishbacon said:

Whilst on the subject, @OilCityPickups , it’s my understanding that ‘tired’ magnets are responsible for some of the hollowness of the tone in old pickups. I recently played one of @db1 old Gibsons and the tone of the p90 was something akin to listening it through an old radio. Tone from beyond. Does this have to do with weaker magnets and is there any way of artificially replicating this?

P90s are a bit different to PAFs in this respect. Normally an alnico magnet is very stable and has a charged life of over 100 years! With P90s there are two magnets with their similar magnetic poles facing each other and they have a tendency to rob each other of charge. This is why when disassembling P90s to rewind them the magnets should always be put back in the same positions ... as they have 'bedded in' with each other. I very seldom find old alnico magnets that are low in charge unless someone has had them too close to speaker magnets or similar. Old Gibson PAF magnets are usually quite 'perky' in their strength for their particular alnico type (bearing in mind several different sorts were used interchangeably). It may simply be that some 'tired magnets' are simply a lower charge alnico alloy to start with ... like alnico 3 (compared to say alnico 2 or four).

Note: in spite of the numbers alnico 3 is weaker than alnico 2 or 4!

Three-ColourSunburst

soma1975 said:

Definitely and unmistakably '59 neck.... A few lines later. Most of the parts look like genuine Gibson parts... The headstock front, possibly off an old SG

Sounds like it could be just another 'Player grade vintage' bitsa.

p90fool

springhead said:

They are still in the original 1959 Les Paul, but can easily be removed.

So, he's going to gut his '59 LP to sell the PAF's?  What bollox!

He's just releasing some equity.

Sassafras

If someone with £20k to spend on pickups gets ripped off, I won't get too upset.

Tex Mexico

Kittyfrisk said:

FWIW, I have actually asked the seller if they care to comment.

In the meantime, some light reading  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Still waiting to hear from your mate.

Does the "confirmation bias" wiki entry cover denying someone's obvious dishonesty because you know them personally?

designerseye88

The thing with PAF's is no set is the same. each set had different tensions, magnets and number of winds, So even if this set was real and unmolested they might not even sound that great. 
Many of the replica sets out there today are accurately made to replicate the best PAF sets. IMO i would spend considerably less on a set from one of the many boutique makers out there.  

captainbeeffart

mark123 said:

go to facebook 

armstrong guitars sunderland 

he has the 59 les paul for sale ,genuine offers 

its not a 59 in my book ,if it was as others earlier have said ,why would you split it and lose £££££££s ???

Looks like a 2001 R8 to me.

OilCityPickups

designerseye88 said:

The thing with PAF's is no set is the same. each set had different tensions, magnets and number of winds, So even if this set was real and unmolested they might not even sound that great. 
Many of the replica sets out there today are accurately made to replicate the best PAF sets. IMO i would spend considerably less on a set from one of the many boutique makers out there.  

Even if you spent top dollar on the most cork sniffing boutique repro set out there. you would still have tons of change out of a grand ... and if you didn't like them ... you could send them back ... 
Um ... no brainer in my book. 

Kittyfrisk

Tex Mexico said:

Kittyfrisk said:

FWIW, I have actually asked the seller if they care to comment.

In the meantime, some light reading  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Still waiting to hear from your mate.

Does the "confirmation bias" wiki entry cover denying someone's obvious dishonesty because you know them personally?

@Tex Mexico ;
 For accuracy, where did I state/claim/intimate/suggest that the seller was 'my mate'?
And no, I did not hear back from the seller, hence my not posting it here.

Read the whole thread from the beginning (if you can process that many words in one go) & you will find I started with the statement (true)  " Firstly, I have no relationship or affiliation with the seller."

Followed by "Even if the guitar is genuine (no idea, but I think it could well be) I personally don't know why anyone would ever be considering selling the pickups separately, but really it's no-one's business but his own."

I always try to be polite to anyone posting here, even those disagreeing with me, but in your case I'm very much prepared to make an exception.
Night, xxx

Tex Mexico

Alright dude, chill your beans. Merely observing that you stuck your neck out for someone in sarcastically accusing us all of poor judgement, and even proposed to drag the guy over here to put us all right. So, you know, first of all you've got a weird idea of "polite", and secondly my inferrence that this guy is in fact your mate despite your protests to the contrary is just a bit of return sarcasm.

gringopig

.

soma1975

I'd rather drink bleach than play Gary Moore licks. 

Anyway my pots came out of an authentic Epiphone Les Paul I'll have you know so it should sound double authentic. 

matone

Kittyfrisk said:

Firstly, I have no relationship or affiliation with the seller.
However, I do know that he is based in Sunderland, has a legitimate music business (including selling Tanglewood guitars) & has a long standing eBay account where he occasionally advertises very high value desirable stuff.
 Including over the years, a couple of genuine vintage Manx Norton racing motorbikes & the '59 Les Paul that this thread has got all excited over.
Even if the guitar is genuine (no idea, but I think it could well be) I personally don't know why anyone would ever be considering selling the pickups separately, but really it's no-one's business but his own.

I just don't see why it has attracted so much vitriol here?

I`d suggest that you research Mr Armstrong and his guitars on the various Gibson based forums.Hth.

Kittyfrisk

Tex Mexico said:

Alright dude, chill your beans. Merely observing that you stuck your neck out for someone in sarcastically accusing us all of poor judgement, and even proposed to drag the guy over here to put us all right. So, you know, first of all you've got a weird idea of "polite", and secondly my inferrence that this guy is in fact your mate despite your protests to the contrary is just a bit of return sarcasm.

I'm perfectly chilled thanks. In fact I'm highly bemused that you find any trace of sarcasm in my initial post, much less any accusation of poor judgement toward anyone here? 
As for my 'proposed to drag the guy over here to put us all right'. I was simply inviting someone to put their own point, rather than myself (or anyone else). It is called being non judgemental & fair.

Try re-reading my initial post as it was written, in an even handed, neutral way, then you might not see so many  non existent implications or accusations.

Where I made a mistake, was in naively initially defending the seller as being based on my then knowledge of him.
Subsequent postings in the thread have cast doubts upon that position, but I won't be spending time in researching it as it is yesterdays news.

Tex Mexico

Kittyfrisk said:

Tex Mexico said:

Alright dude, chill your beans. Merely observing that you stuck your neck out for someone in sarcastically accusing us all of poor judgement, and even proposed to drag the guy over here to put us all right. So, you know, first of all you've got a weird idea of "polite", and secondly my inferrence that this guy is in fact your mate despite your protests to the contrary is just a bit of return sarcasm.

I'm perfectly chilled thanks. In fact I'm highly bemused that you find any trace of sarcasm in my initial post, much less any accusation of poor judgement toward anyone here? 
As for my 'proposed to drag the guy over here to put us all right'. I was simply inviting someone to put their own point, rather than myself (or anyone else). It is called being non judgemental & fair.

Try re-reading my initial post as it was written, in an even handed, neutral way, then you might not see so many  non existent implications or accusations.

Where I made a mistake, was in naively initially defending the seller as being based on my then knowledge of him.
Subsequent postings in the thread have cast doubts upon that position, but I won't be spending time in researching it as it is yesterdays news.

I mean, you posted a link to the wiki page for confirmation bias to imply that we were all not only wrong but also deluded about it. If proposing that people self-diagnose confirmation bias isn't sarcasm, I don't know what is.

Ironic given the above that you're now not going to bother to find out why you were wrong about the OP. That's the literal definition of confirmation bias. Or maybe your wit is so unbelievably dry and arch that I'm not getting the joke.

Anyway, you know, peace out, etc.

soma1975

Kittyfrisk said:

Tex Mexico said:

Alright dude, chill your beans. Merely observing that you stuck your neck out for someone in sarcastically accusing us all of poor judgement, and even proposed to drag the guy over here to put us all right. So, you know, first of all you've got a weird idea of "polite", and secondly my inferrence that this guy is in fact your mate despite your protests to the contrary is just a bit of return sarcasm.

I'm perfectly chilled thanks. In fact I'm highly bemused that you find any trace of sarcasm in my initial post, much less any accusation of poor judgement toward anyone here? 
As for my 'proposed to drag the guy over here to put us all right'. I was simply inviting someone to put their own point, rather than myself (or anyone else). It is called being non judgemental & fair.

Try re-reading my initial post as it was written, in an even handed, neutral way, then you might not see so many  non existent implications or accusations.

Where I made a mistake, was in naively initially defending the seller as being based on my then knowledge of him.
Subsequent postings in the thread have cast doubts upon that position, but I won't be spending time in researching it as it is yesterdays news.

You DID rather accuse us of confirmation bias and also doubled down on that by posting a link to a wiki page on it just in case like you were the only person who knew about the concept.

Not neutral and even-handed. Pointed and condescending and absolutely containing an implication/accusation. Otherwise why say it? 

Adey

rossi said:

Gibson never made a Manx Norton .

I'm pretty sure that Harley Benton do one.

You just need to swap out the engine and it's fantastic...