Upgrading/Replacing pick ups

Jetfire

So I currently have a Faith Naked Venus series which has a piezo system. I'm curious about potentially changing over the system to a different method of internal pick up.  I tried a nice Vintage Rory Evans Sig guitar over the weekend which via the PA system was brillant and it had a Fishman Sonicore pickup system so I wondered about something like that to be installed.

Is it do able? The Rory wasn't as good sounding in an non plugged in acoustic environment as my Faith in my opinion

crunchman

Jetfire said:

So I currently have a Faith Naked Venus series which has a piezo system. I'm curious about potentially changing over the system to a different method of internal pick up.  I tried a nice Vintage Rory Evans Sig guitar over the weekend which via the PA system was brillant and it had a Fishman Sonicore pickup system so I wondered about something like that to be installed.

Is it do able? The Rory wasn't as good sounding in an non plugged in acoustic environment as my Faith in my opinion

I'd look at adding a pedal to improve the sound first.  I've got a TC Electronic Body Rez, but I bought that before the Boss AD-2 was released.  These days I'd buy the Boss given my previous experience of TC (lack of) reliability.  At £50 second hand though, it's not the end of the world if the TC does die.

Both those pedals will use digital trickery to improve the sound.  I know from experience that the Body Rez does noticeably improve the sound of an undersaddle piezo.

Jetfire

I suppose I should say I have a Helix which could prove very useful. @TimmyO was very helpful with some instructions for an acoustic patch which I have currently forgotten ...doh

crunchman

Jetfire said:

I suppose I should say I have a Helix which could prove very useful. @TimmyO was very helpful with some instructions for an acoustic patch which I have currently forgotten ...doh

There are IRs for acoustics online.  Would be worth downloading some and trying with the Helix.

Funkfingers

The plugged-in sound of each of the guitars you compared is the result of everything in those instrument. Thus, a bright transducer in a duller guitar can still add up to a pleasing amplified sound. 

Jetfire said:

Fishman Sonicore pickup system so I wondered about something like that to be installed. Is it do able? 

Yeah but no but ... 
1) Transducer strip thickness differences would make it necessary to modify or replace the original Faith bridge.
2) Unless the control modules are of identical size and shape, it would be necessary to modify the side of the guitar body.


It ought to be possible to make your Faith sound more like the Rory by use of EQ and, possibly, compression.

TimmyO

Jetfire said:

I suppose I should say I have a Helix which could prove very useful. @TimmyO was very helpful with some instructions for an acoustic patch which I have currently forgotten ...doh

As someone just said, it obviously gives you the option of using an IR (ie if you have a Piezo pickup, and an IR designed to work with a Piezo signal e.g. the ones from 3Sigma Audio - that is an. option

I was blathering about using the multiband compressor in Helix/Stomp to sweeten an acoustic pickup sound - can help tame the spikiness of the top end without compressing the low end into feedback hell. 

ICBM

This is the main reason I think it's always better to just put a simple pickup in the guitar and do everything else with outboard gear.

Although if the internal system is piezo-UST-based and can be set to a flat response, then something like a Fishman Aura preamp, which is designed specifically to take a UST signal, will work well. The simple TC/Boss-type 'resonance' pedals would go a fair way to it too.

menamestom

The Fishman Sonicore is a piezo system.

The Helix is the quickest route. 3sigma audio have IR's specifically for piezo systems so you have something similar to the Aura preamp already, you just need the $10 IR.

Open mic nights might need a different approach, where you just hand somebody your lead, in which case a better all in one system may work better.

Also, IR's can need feedback treatment as they bring many of the issues of microphones, in which case a magnetic system may offer better feedback rejection.

stephen.wood125

I'm going through similar with a Friend's Faith as he's sick of replacing the god awful Shadow Preamp (currently on his 4th) He bought a new higher end Faith (Dark Roast) which has a stunning Fishman dual pickup with a mic as well as the Piezo and sounds really superb. I'm going for the LR Baggs Stagepro Anthem (after I fitted the standard Anthem in my OM-42 and loved it). Hopefully it's reasonably close size wise and the shadow system can be duly binned.

If only for the fact he didn't want external pedals etc and wanted to maintain the onboard tuner I'd have done exactly the same, stuck a decent internal pickup in and lent him my AD10 preamp pedal, as said above though that can lead to issues with open mic nights.

Funkfingers

Jetfire said:

Faith Naked Venus ... Fishman Sonicore pickup system so I wondered about something like that to be installed.

According to the specifications published on the Faith website, your guitar leaves the factory with the Sonicore USP installed as standard. 
 
https://www.faithguitars.com/guitars/by-series/naked-series/product/125-fkv-naked-venus-cut-electro

https://www.faithguitars.com/guitars/by-series/naked-series/product/238-fkvcd-naked-venus-cut-electro-cedar-mahogany

Perhaps, the "improvements" you desire can be achieved by merely upgrading the onboard pre-amp/controls module?

ICBM said:

I think it's always better to just put a simple pickup in the guitar and do everything else with outboard gear.

This. 

ICBM

stephen.wood125 said:

If only for the fact he didn't want external pedals etc and wanted to maintain the onboard tuner I'd have done exactly the same, stuck a decent internal pickup in and lent him my AD10 preamp pedal, as said above though that can lead to issues with open mic nights.

Actually open mic nights are one of the reasons I have an AD-8 - it runs on batteries, and has enough EQ and anti-feedback control, and basic reverb, as well as a tuner... it's a 'solve any problem' box rather than the last word in sound quality. It even has a dedicated 'electric guitar amp' output in case there's no other option for monitoring and one is available. You can still hand the soundperson your lead - the one that comes from the pedal.

p90fool

I too have a Faith Naked Venus, and have ditched the preamp entirely. 

I wired the undersaddle piezo directly to the jack and use a Zoom AC-3 pedal. 

I spent years faffing with the onboard preamp during gigs to try and find the sweet spot, now I just plug and play, with no batteries to worry about and the best live acoustic sound I've ever had by some margin. 

I almost can't wait for the Fishman preamp in my Gibson to die, in fact I probably won't wait and will bin it anyway. 

I'm sick of unnatural, unpredictable tones full of spikes and notches, the latest outboard pedals are fantastic and you can use them for all your guitars. 

Jetfire

@p90fool I'd be interested in hearing what that sounds like hooked up and recorded

p90fool

Ok, gimme a couple of days

ICBM

p90fool said:

I too have a Faith Naked Venus, and have ditched the preamp entirely. 

I wired the undersaddle piezo directly to the jack and use a Zoom AC-3 pedal. 

I spent years faffing with the onboard preamp during gigs to try and find the sweet spot, now I just plug and play, with no batteries to worry about and the best live acoustic sound I've ever had by some margin. 

I almost can't wait for the Fishman preamp in my Gibson to die, in fact I probably won't wait and will bin it anyway. 

I'm sick of unnatural, unpredictable tones full of spikes and notches, the latest outboard pedals are fantastic and you can use them for all your guitars. 

I did that with the Baggs in my Gibson too.

And when a new latest outboard box comes out, you simply replace it. Why have a nice acoustic guitar that will get better with age, and lumber it with an internal electronics package that will be obsolete well before that - if it doesn’t fail first...

The modern generation of outboard preamps can sound great with any type of pickup in the guitar, including the dreaded traditional piezo UST, so why bother making the guitar more complicated and unreliable than it needs to be?

Funkfingers

ICBM said:

Why have a nice acoustic guitar ... and lumber it with an internal electronics package that will be obsolete well before that?

For owners of guitars lumbered from new with an onboard pre-amp/control package, there would be the small matter of what to do with the redundant hole in the side of the guitar. Plectrum receptacle? Ash tray? Les Paul Personal XLR microphone socket?

ICBM

Funkfingers said:

For owners of guitars lumbered from new with an onboard pre-amp/control package, there would be the small matter of what to do with the redundant hole in the side of the guitar. Plectrum receptacle? Ash tray? Les Paul Personal XLR microphone socket?

Sound port.

I've always suspected that the tone-enhancing properties of a hole in the side of the guitar were discovered exactly like that...

p90fool

Mine is now a sound port, and luckily the preamp fitted to mine had a neat plastic surround I could leave in the hole as a sort of finishing trim. 

It actually vastly improved the sound for the player, it was a bit of a plinky old thing before ditching the preamp. 

Funkfingers

ICBM said:

Funkfingers said:
... the small matter of what to do with the redundant hole in the side of the guitar. 

Sound port.

KORG Kaoss Pad à la Matt Bellamy.

p90fool

Jetfire said:

@p90fool I'd be interested in hearing what that sounds like hooked up and recorded

I've posted it here in a new thread @Jetfire ;

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/175640/ditching-your-onboard-preamp?new=1

Littlejonny

I’m mates with Rory - he’s a really lovely guy and phenomenal guitarist. I’ve played on his prototype and a production model and I can vouch for the pickup system sounding excellent. Overall an amazing guitar for the money - I’m seriously considering buying one myself.