Kahlers

TTony

Heretic @JayGee .

I put a set of Oil City Stone Tones in my one - But definitely no Kahler!

FelineGuitars

Any Kahler fans or anyone curious could look at my latest ad in the classifieds

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/177821/kahler-usa-2300-1980s-flatmount-tremolo-system-needs-arm-160?new=1

Philly_Q

ICBM said:

If you mean the 'classic' 2300 series Flat-Mount or 2200 Gibson fitting one...

In my experience they kill the natural tone and sustain of the guitar - even if you shim the neck or recess the unit to maximise the saddle height and break angle. When you use the arm, firstly it feels looser and less precise than a Floyd, and secondly the strings don't lift at the bridge as they drop in tension so they tend to flap and rattle against the frets more than they do with a Floyd.

This is all true, although I'm not sure about the feel as compared with a Floyd because I've very limited experience with Floyds (when I did briefly have a Floyd I didn't like the feel and I hated the string-changing and intonation-setting process).

I put a Kahler on my Hamer Special, which was my only guitar at the time, in 1985.  The guitar's similar to a doublecut LP Jr, so I had the flatmount Kahler and the guitar's neck angle was such that the break angle over the saddles was good.  But I agree with ICBM, it did kill the sustain.

Having said that, I liked the feel of it in use - hard to describe but there isn't a "zero point" like there is on a fulcrum bridge so you can go very smoothly from lowering the pitch to raising the pitch, it doesn't "stick" at all at the normal equilibrium point.

Set-up's a bit of a faff but less so than some bridges, and string changing is easy, although I had to buy Ernie Ball RPS strings because normal strings would break in the string claws at the ball end.

I like the look of Kahler bridges too, I always thought they were very elegant and nicely made (although to be fair I'd say the say the same of OFR and Schaller Floyds).

Gadget

I have Kahler Pros on 6 of my guitars.

My views on Kahlers V Floyd Rose...

1) Floyds require a large through-body (and often top surface) rout and large back cavity. This removal of wood has a detrimental effect on the resonant mass of the body. The Kahler requires only a very small top surface rout.

2) The Floyd anchors to the body only on two stud points...as opposed to the large surface area direct body mount of the Kahler. True, the Floyd also has< a spring-anchor in the back of the guitar's body, but this can set-off un-sympathetic resonant waves in the springs and also 'trap' ghost notes in the rear cavity (my Floyd-equipped Manson does this). You'll often see experienced Floyd players removing their back cover plate, as well as wrapping the trem's springs with wool, just to compensate for these failings.

3) Palm pressure on a Kahler bridge will not raise the tuning, unlike on a Floyd.

4) The Kahler's strings are much easier to change. No tools required, no ball ends to cut off, no threading to do and no clamps to tighten.

5) The fine tuners on a Kahler are top mounted and easy to operate. Some Floyd's can be difficult to get to and all are easily levered-up or depressed during tuning, which kind of defeats the purpose.

6) The strings remain at the same height during trem action with the Kahler, whereas they don't with the Floyd's fulcrum system.

7) The Kahler's strings run over brass or steel rollers, rather than over a static 'break point', providing a smoother, more positive action.

ICBM

Gadget said:

I have Kahler Pros on 6 of my guitars.

My views on Kahlers V Floyd Rose...

1 - if you're fitting it to a Strat-style guitar with an existing trem (like a lot I fitted), the Kahler takes away more wood than the Floyd.

2 - yes, the unwanted resonances are something I really dislike about the Floyd. But I don't think the contact points are an issue - the real contact points are the Floyd's post bushings into the wood, vs the Kahler's four screws. I think the Floyd wins on contact area (if it matters at all).

3 - true. But some people like to do that on purpose .

4 - but you still have the locking nut, so you need an Allen key anyway. Admittedly the bridge end is a bit more fiddly with a Floyd.

5 - true.

6 - is a disadvantage of the Kahler, because raising the strings as the tension is lowered helps stop fret rattle, especially as the neck tends to bow backwards slightly as the string tension goes down.

7 - is the other way round, it's exactly the *lack* of any moving parts at the contact point that makes the Floyd so precise and positive. Rollers introduce friction, however small.

I have to admit I may be biased against them because I ruined the body on my favourite old Aria by fitting a Kahler - recessed as well as the cam rout... although to be fair, the Roland guitar synth controller I routed into the front (before the internal mounting kit was available) was worse .

Gadget

ICBM said:

Gadget said:

I have Kahler Pros on 6 of my guitars.

My views on Kahlers V Floyd Rose...

1 - if you're fitting it to a Strat-style guitar with an existing trem (like a lot I fitted), the Kahler takes away more wood than the Floyd.

2 - yes, the unwanted resonances are something I really dislike about the Floyd. But I don't think the contact points are an issue - the real contact points are the Floyd's post bushings into the wood, vs the Kahler's four screws. I think the Floyd wins on contact area (if it matters at all).

3 - true. But some people like to do that on purpose .

4 - but you still have the locking nut, so you need an Allen key anyway. Admittedly the bridge end is a bit more fiddly with a Floyd.

5 - true.

6 - is a disadvantage of the Kahler, because raising the strings as the tension is lowered helps stop fret rattle, especially as the neck tends to bow backwards slightly as the string tension goes down.

7 - is the other way round, it's exactly the *lack* of any moving parts at the contact point that makes the Floyd so precise and positive. Rollers introduce friction, however small.

I have to admit I may be biased against them because I ruined the body on my favourite old Aria by fitting a Kahler - recessed as well as the cam rout... although to be fair, the Roland guitar synth controller I routed into the front (before the internal mounting kit was available) was worse .

1 - All my Kahler-equipped guitars were built with them on, not retro-fitted. But yes, in the case you describe...

4 - All of mine have Kahler quick release lock nuts, so no allen keys.

6 - I don't tend to dive-bomb and don't suffer with rattle, but if you're going that extreme, then I think you'll find your strings flopping about whatever trem you use. I've never notice a neck bow so quickly as to be a problem during playing.

7 - I respectfully disagree. The string is still moving over a static fulcrum on a FR. On a Kahler, it sits on a wheel which moves. Yes, the Kahler still has some friction, but I would argue not as much.

ICBM

Gadget said:

7 - I respectfully disagree. The string is still moving over a static fulcrum on a FR. On a Kahler, it sits on a wheel which moves. Yes, the Kahler still has some friction, but I would argue not as much.

The string doesn't move at all on the Floyd, so there's no friction. That's exactly why they're so perfectly tuning-stable.

Schnozz

These pros and cons are really helpful.

Just regarding a Floyd, is the Schaller lockmeister made of the same materials as an original Floyd rose?

I didn't realize Graphtech made one as well!