Chinese fakes

chris78

I was searching yesterday on google and DHgate came up as a suggestion. I’ve seen it before offering ludicrous prices for obvious counterfeit guitars. It’s worth saying, even if they’re amazing, I wouldn’t buy one as the whole concept is just wrong.
I was wondering though if anyone had an how bad they are? I’m presuming they’re utterly dreadful guitars that have fret issues, poor quality finishes etc, but I’m also aware that PRS are making very well finished guitars in Indonesia and China, Fender and Epiphone the same so are they as bad as I think?

TheMarlin

I bought one out of curiosity from this very forum (many years ago). Wish I hadn’t. 

Gave it away, as couldn’t bring my self to actually sell the damn thing. 

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

Don’t know why I bothered, I’ve never liked LP’s. 

Henrytwang

There are videos on YouTube featuring Cheap Chinese fake Gibson guitars. Most of them are less than complementary. I guess that if you buy one it’s a bit of a gamble, it seems that you either get a load of rubbish or something that turns out ok with some work .

TTony

"Chinese" fakes is a bit of a broad category.

There are a few factories churning out guitars at various price points. 

Some are cheap and nasty and barely playable, some are better than the original.

phil_b

TTony said:

"Chinese" fakes is a bit of a broad category.

There are a few factories churning out guitars at various price points. 

Some are cheap and nasty and barely playable, some are better than the original.

fakes are the ones that have a brand name on them from a company that did not make the guitar or approve it. ie the ones that say Gibson or Fender on them. This is not a broad category.

I have not owned one but like Henrytwang have sat trough a lot of videos about them and they all seem to say the same thing.

They tend made from good wood

the hardware is cheap and nasty

the tend to have problems like incorrect neck angles that need work to put it right.

you can make them into a good guitar but you need all new hardware and a luthier. So you end up spending a lot of money to put it right and once finished it is still worth nothing because it is still a fake. The work gets so expensive it makes more sense just to buy an original

prowla

I have an AliExpress doubleneck; it's not a copy of anything AFAIK.

I got it cheap because the original buyer from AliExpress had given up trying to fix issues with it.

The bass bridge had failed (threads stripped); I tried fixing it by replacing the tuning bolts (they are just M.4 bolts with a knurled knob on the end), but it was the string claws/pullers which were made of soft metal and had stripped their threads. I bought a replacement bridge from a supplier, but it was badly made and didn't work; fortunately I was able to put parts from it into the original one and now it works.

The guitar bridge's trem spring part had failed, but I was able to replace its bolt. However, I've just got the trem locked in place, as it is impossible to tune otherwise.

The original bass pickups ("EMG" branded, but I have severe doubts!) were naff, so I replaced them with Retrovibe Ric-style ones; curiously they were drop-in replacements, even the screw holes were exact.

The nut/zero fret on both bass and guitar was way too high, so playing first position chords would be out of tune. I've taken down the bass one and it's almost there, but have yet to do the guitar one.

The guitar had a habit of sucking the volume out of the bass unless I turned down the guitar vol - the lower Vol/Tone are guitar and the upper Vol/Tone are the bass, and they both go to the single jack output. I've put a push-pull pot on the guitar to disconnect the guitar when pulled (ie. act as a kill switch).

When cutting off the string ends at the headstock it can leave a nasty sharp end there; I cut myself a couple of times...

When fitting new strings, getting the length right is crucial; I think the bass tuners failing was because the strings were cut a bit log and then the tuner was over-tightened to try and get that last twist needed to tune it.

The two "Overlord of Music" bridges are just very poor quality cheap toot; unfortunately, real Steinberger or Hipshot units are really expensive, so I'm stuck with what I've got for now.

I don't know why the guitar end protrudes more than the bass end at the bottom of the body; it means that standing the guitar on the floor puts it at an angle.

The bass pickup selector switch is in a really awkward place - right where my forearm goes when playing the guitar.

Given a choice, I'd have the necks slightly closer together, just so the guitar is slightly easier to reach.

It's not a fit instrument for gigging - I wouldn't trust the hardware (there was some video of someone with a fake Bigsby on an SG which gave up mid-song); it's just not up to the job.

The instrument itself is really easy to play and comfortable; despite all the issues, I really like it!

I'm toying with the idea of getting a copy of it custom made, using quality components and a couple of minor tweaks...

ICBM

We need to break ourselves of buying cheap stuff from China just because it's cheap. This is partly why our economy is in a mess, and partly why we daren't say Boo to the Chinese government on many other issues. (Including intellectual property rights, ie faking.)

I know this is not what you want to hear and quite probably belongs in the P&E section, but I thought it had to be said.

I admit to owning a few cheap Chinese-made things too, like everyone else.

TTony

phil_b said:

TTony said:

"Chinese" fakes is a bit of a broad category.

There are a few factories churning out guitars at various price points. 

Some are cheap and nasty and barely playable, some are better than the original.

fakes are the ones that have a brand name on them from a company that did not make the guitar or approve it. ie the ones that say Gibson or Fender on them. This is not a broad category.

I didn't mean that the definition of Chinese fake was open to interpretation.  It's clearly not.

I did mean that you can't really refer to "Chinese fakes" as if the term covers every instance of a fake guitar coming out of China because there are many sources/factories producing them.  Some are undoubtedly cheap and nasty.  Some are not.

ICBM said:

We need to break ourselves of buying cheap stuff from China just because it's cheap. This is partly why our economy is in a mess, and partly why we daren't say Boo to the Chinese government on many other issues. 

 Completely agree with that.

Putting aside the politics, there are some interesting parallels.  Back in the '60s/'70s, "Made in Japan" had the same connotations of cheap copy as "Made in China" does now.  There were similar legal challenges from incumbents about IP theft (etc) - though more easily enforceable against Japanese manufacturers then than Chinese manufacturers now.

That copying phase was part of the Japanese industry's learning curve.    Arguably, the subsequent innovation and challenge from Japanese designers and manufacturers led to a huge improvement in product innovation and manufacturing capabilities worldwide.

Be interesting to see how Made in China is regarded in 10-20 years time ... 

OilCityPickups

ICBM said:

We need to break ourselves of buying cheap stuff from China just because it's cheap. This is partly why our economy is in a mess, and partly why we daren't say Boo to the Chinese government on many other issues. (Including intellectual property rights, ie faking.)

I know this is not what you want to hear and quite probably belongs in the P&E section, but I thought it had to be said.

I admit to owning a few cheap Chinese-made things too, like everyone else.

I totally agree with this sentiment. 

Funkfingers

chris78 said:

PRS are making very well finished guitars in Indonesia and China

Indonesia and South Korea, certainly. I am not aware of any genuine PRS instruments manufactured in China. Some of the hardware may be sourced there.

chris78 said:

Fender and Epiphone … are they as bad as I think?

These two brands rely quite heavily on Chinese factories. Some instruments have impossibly glossy finishes on them that I cannot abide. Some of the Fender-branded “beginner” acoustic guitars are seriously good … and not just for the money.

Quality control may not be up to Japanese, American or European standards but, at the price point, the manufacturers can afford to offer direct replacement for any dealer returns.

johnhe

OilCityPickups said:

ICBM said:

We need to break ourselves of buying cheap stuff from China just because it's cheap. This is partly why our economy is in a mess, and partly why we daren't say Boo to the Chinese government on many other issues. (Including intellectual property rights, ie faking.)

I know this is not what you want to hear and quite probably belongs in the P&E section, but I thought it had to be said.

I admit to owning a few cheap Chinese-made things too, like everyone else.

I totally agree with this sentiment. 

The problem is that this is a very simplistic statement. I’m not saying that ICBM feels simplistic about it. But it is a complex situation. My last employer was Chinese. I’ve visited China many times. As the Chinese people become more wealthy, China is becoming less and less low cost. But it’s absolutely clear - it’s not a free society, many firms are subsidised to grow market share, intellectual property rights are not widely respected.

but this thing that I saying is more complicated is that I believe the brits, the Europeans, the Americans are doing everything they can to tighten up on these issues like patents, IP etc. But it’s not easy when you don’t have a lot of leverage. And it’s not easy when China may have bailed out many economies when they’re struggling.

so I think there is a very two-faced approach. Many people want the good things that China can provide - high quality and low cost (if properly monitored) etc, access to international funds and a huge domestic market. But people want to also be able to cry wolf when they don’t like something in particular.

sorry for the long email.

to bring back to topic, I’ve just bought a Gorgeous Eastman. It is Everything that is good about Chinese product - beautiful guitar, beautifully made by very skilled craftsmen (from what I can read on the subject).

chris78

Funkfingers said:

chris78 said:

PRS are making very well finished guitars in Indonesia and China

Indonesia and South Korea, certainly. I am not aware of any genuine PRS instruments manufactured in China. Some of the hardware may be sourced there.

Im sure I read the hollowbody se is being made in China 

Funkfingers

chris78 said:

Funkfingers said:

Im sure I read the hollowbody se is being made in China 

I did not say this. Apart from anything else, I would have used the apostrophe correctly.

prowla

OilCityPickups said:

ICBM said:

We need to break ourselves of buying cheap stuff from China just because it's cheap. This is partly why our economy is in a mess, and partly why we daren't say Boo to the Chinese government on many other issues. (Including intellectual property rights, ie faking.)

I know this is not what you want to hear and quite probably belongs in the P&E section, but I thought it had to be said.

I admit to owning a few cheap Chinese-made things too, like everyone else.

I totally agree with this sentiment. 

These past few weeks I have nearly bought a couple of things on ebay from China, but have not gone ahead with it and bought UK instead.

However, it's likely that what I got was MIC anyway and all I've done is paid a mark-up.

Toe_Knee

A friend bought an esp explorer copy from aliexpress and once he changed the pickups it was actually a really solid guitar. Frets were level and nicely dressed .

It was ridiculously light though so probably made of ply but it sounded great in his metallica cover band. Think it cost him £180 and he just threw in a set of emgs he had in his parts drawe .

With that turning out so well he got les paul which was a nightmare the bridge was on the wrong position and the frets were a total mess.

Complete lottery

pjf

chris78 said:

I was searching yesterday on google and DHgate came up as a suggestion. I’ve seen it before offering ludicrous prices for obvious counterfeit guitars. It’s worth saying, even if they’re amazing, I wouldn’t buy one as the whole concept is just wrong.
I was wondering though if anyone had an how bad they are? I’m presuming they’re utterly dreadful guitars that have fret issues, poor quality finishes etc, but I’m also aware that PRS are making very well finished guitars in Indonesia and China, Fender and Epiphone the same so are they as bad as I think?

I agree with you 100%, wouldn’t buy one and don’t want any part in supporting it!

Babones

TTony said:

Be interesting to see how Made in China is regarded in 10-20 years time ... 

I reckon not much different to now. It's not changed much over the last 30-40 years. China has an image problem that they can't shift. 

phil_b

JezWynd

@johnhe said: Many people want the good things that China can provide - high quality and low cost 

High quality? My experience, limited to consumer goods, is the exact opposite and is the reason I now avoid Chinese made if I can (v difficult in many areas). Chinese metal rusts in a year, screws are soft and fail. It’s all sizzle and no steak.

rocktron

The other thing to consider is selling the guitar, assuming that you would want to.

You probably won't be able to advertise it on eBay if the headstock bears the name of an established guitar maker. 

Some sellers get around this by covering the maker's name on the headstock.  

maltingsaudio

Once they’ve put the makers name on the headstock then it’s a different thing but if they use their own brand name surely it stops being a fake and becomes a copy. 

Then we are left with the situation we’ve been in for the last 50 years of some copies being brilliant and some crap.