Fender Acoustasonics

TTony

inspired partly by the above, and partly by the very similar Kawai r’n’r stars of the 1980s, I’m thinking about building a something similar.

Largely Hollowbody, but hollowed out from a solid piece rather than being constructed as an acoustic.

With a normal pickup and a piezo.

The acoustic element (ie sound hole) is largely for appearances - it’ll only really be used plugged-in.  So, no worries about all the intricacies of infernal bracing, etc.

Am I right in thinking that the best piezo will be under saddle design?  Then I need to get an acoustic bridge/saddle to hold the piezo, a preamp & battery housed within the guitar, and some means of switching between and/or blending between the different pickups?  Thinking of using through-body stringing.

Any thoughts / suggestions?

Rabs

Yes, I am planning the same thing.. So I have looked in to it but what I am about to say I haven't actually had a chance to try it yet..

That guitar I am making for my friend who passed away just over a year ago.. He played open mic nights and did his own recordings so I wanted to make him a guitar which he could do both with.. I did plan it with him while he was still alive and so I know it has his approval (well in look anyway)..  Gonna look something like this
https://i.imgur.com/a7XuVHr.jpg

I never really expect that it will actually sound like a full acoustic but hopefully just get a good enough sound.

I think its gonna come down to the electronics. From what I have read you will need some kind of sound booster/equaliser. The basic sound from a lot of piezos is not usually that good so they need some kind of balancing. So 1meg pots high value cap on the piezo is also probably required.

I have also read that piezo and electric circuits don't like to mix together.

So like you my original plan was to use an acoustic bridge with a piezo. Then I came across these cheap TOM type piezo bridges..  Now ok, you look at that and think, how good can it be. But in my mind piezo technology isn't that complicated you can buy them anywhere. So I am hoping to use it and experiment with electronics to see how good I can get it to sound.

This... You can see. Basically theres a piezo under each saddle.
https://i.imgur.com/jRSQY0Z.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vWehhWU.jpg

Theres one other thing about this too that I found out on my internet travels when learning about this. When you make a hybrid guitar like this.. What strings to you put on? Acoustic strings don't react so well to electric pickups and electric strings don't react so well with piezo pickups..

The answer (if there is one), is that there is such a thing as electro acoustic strings. From what I remember they are bronze wrapped in steel or something along those lines. Or every other string has a different core alternating between bronze and steel.
Ahh, here we go

• ZEBRA Acoustic Guitar Strings are made for acoustic-electric guitars with piezo pickups under the bridge or magnetic pickups in the sound hole
• Alternating nickel-plated steel and phosphor bronze wrap wires every other coil on a round core wire

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DR-Strings-Zebra-Acoustic-Electric-Round/dp/B001AWWN84/ref=sr_1_5?crid=13RLG7VA1XPV5&dchild=1&keywords=dr+zebra+strings&qid=1587246486&sprefix=dr+zebra+,aps,137&sr=8-5


So there you go.. That's about all I know   

ArchtopDave

Tony - is the above just a very early stage idea?? What are you aiming to achieve, particularly sound wise? I acquired a Acoustasonic just before lockdown; partly my curiosity was reactivated by Lewy's Thread, and additionally by some points made in Danish Pete's and Dan's video for Andertons. I'd been thinking about doing some acoustic guitar playing for some of the songs that my band does --- unfortunately I haven't been able to try the guitar for real with the band because we ain't meeting up at the moment.

I think Fender have managed to create a very interesting guitar with the Acoustasonic. The plugged in sounds are good, though I agree with Lewy that some EQ'ing may be order to get the very best out of it sound wise. Unplugged it actually has a perfectly adequate acoustic sound particular for practicing at home, despite not looking anything like an acoustic. 

Given that you say you're not planning on acoustic style bracing, are you thinking of a body with a centre block, or of making the body with a top/ back/sides sufficiently thick to take the stress of the string tension?

TTony

Thanks @Rabs.  I probably need to do some more internet research.  Where did you find that particular piezo bridge?

@ArchtopDave - the idea came from a combination of reading the review of the Strat acoustisonic In this month’s Total Guitar, a recent reacquaintance with my old Kawais, and a thought of making my own PRS SE Hollowbody.

Plan - such as it is - is to start with a solid body and rout it out to leave sides about 15mm thick, a thinnish centre strip, and then a more substantial block under the bridge.  Back will probably be 10mm thick.  Top will be carved from 20mom at the down to 10mm at the edges.  I thought that’d be enough to support the string tension (but no maths went into that thought!:

Rabs

Ebay
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tune-O-Matic-Piezo-Guitar-bridge-Pickup-in-Chrome-Black-or-Gold/372351595221?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=cdd3528763124871bc691587e699e9ff&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&mehot=pp&sd=372351595221&itm=372351595221&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:77de1b1c-81c0-11ea-b0b2-74dbd180e88b|parentrq:8f519f0b1710ad4d79a5d2b2ffe4b940|iid:1 

When I was looking about.. I came across this vid where all she does is fit a disc in the control cavity. While im not saying in anyway it sound like a full rich acoustic.. If that's the least I can expect then its something


But lets face it.. If it were that easy to get a real acoustic sound from a more electric guitar we would all be doing it..    Im gonna give it a go anyway (eventually).

victorludorum

@ICBM has one for sale at the moment I think

sev112

Sounds a great experiment / plan, I look forward to seeing how this turns out.
i have 2 “electro acoustics” I have a Kramer ferrington, and a more recent Epiphone EJ200CE.  So a very thin body and a huge body.

the Kramer is lovely to play (although neck heavy) and just plugged into an amp works great for finger picking.  Strumming however is a different issue, it is the epitome of quacky tinny piezos.  Used to home acoustically it’s a lovely little guitar.

the Epi is very nice.  It’s 2 years old now, and has developed a lovely acoustic tone.  It has a piezo and it has a magnetic pickup.
played through an amp I just stick the blend in the middle and tweak a little bit depending on the sound.  Works well.
interestingly however, if I don’t use any mag pickup in the blend, it sounds nothing like the Kramer / typical quacky piezo!? 

I use standard Martin acoustic 12s on it, and the mag has no difficulty picking up the signal.  I used to use acoustic strings on the Kramer too with no probs.

(as an aside the Kramer piezo quack could be substantially tamed if using live, by reverb and eq).

kramer now live-streams in my teenage daughter’s room as the slim neck size suits her more

Andyjr1515

Hi, @TTony ;;

A good subject for experimentation - I'll be following this one 

For what it's worth, I've built or modded a number of guitars and basses with piezo / magnetic combinations and, actually, my main guitar at the moment is a 'proper' hybrid - a Gillett Contour 6.  In fact, thinking about it, all the guitars I have in the house at the moment have piezo / magnetic combinations of various sorts.  I have to say, it did take me a while, and quite a bit of trial and error, to understand the options and the various benefits or challenges of those options.  So you are quite right to do a bit of internet research and pondering before you lay out any cash.

In terms of helping you with that thought process, there is probably one important consideration before you start.  And that is related to what you are trying to get out of the combination (All this assumes, as you've said at the start, that you are not aiming for an acoustically 'active' top).

Are you:   
  
 - after something that will do decent electric and a passable acoustic plus a mix of the two - in which case you need to build in some form of acoustic emulation board to turn the piezo sound into an 'acoustic' sound (if this is the case, I have some freebie things here that need a decent home to go to )
or
- after a clean piezo sound to blend or add to the magnetics to add depth or treble or just gain a new set of sounds - in which case you will still need a mixer board to get the outputs/impedances balanced
or
- are you planning to drive a midi-based synthesiser from it.  If so, you will need yet another board in there, and a synthesiser to handle the output

In terms of piezos, I'm also a fan of piezo saddles rather than under-saddle acoustic piezos and I have personally found some of the cheaper ones just as good as the eye-wateringly expensive ones.  Nowadays, you can get piezo equipped bridges and also piezo saddles to fit to your existing bridges.  I have used both and not personally had a problem with either.  

Lastly, have a look at ArtecSounds website.  Some of Artec products are as cheap as chips but, to be honest, I have yet to come across one that hasn't punched way, way above its weight. 

ICBM

victorludorum said:

@ICBM has one for sale at the moment I think

The piezo T-o-M is sold, but I have the perfect magnetic pickup if you want to use it as an electro-acoustic - with acoustic strings - rather than an electric with a piezo and electric strings... a Bartolini 3AV that’s missing it’s original soundhole mount. It’s the same size as a Strat pickup. Buy it before I change my mind and keep it for my own project .

You can’t blend piezo and magnetic pickups directly - the impedances are completely incompatible - but you can easily do it with a preamp, and there’s at least one purposely designed for it, the Fishman Powerchip.

TTony

Thanks for the comments guys - I've spent an hour of my (birthday!) morning watching YT vids ...

@Andyjr1515 ;

Andyjr1515 said:

In terms of helping you with that thought process, there is probably one important consideration before you start.  And that is related to what you are trying to get out of the combination (All this assumes, as you've said at the start, that you are not aiming for an acoustically 'active' top).

Are you:   
  
 - after something that will do decent electric and a passable acoustic plus a mix of the two - in which case you need to build in some form of acoustic emulation board to turn the piezo sound into an 'acoustic' sound (if this is the case, I have some freebie things here that need a decent home to go to )
or
- after a clean piezo sound to blend or add to the magnetics to add depth or treble or just gain a new set of sounds - in which case you will still need a mixer board to get the outputs/impedances balanced
or
- are you planning to drive a midi-based synthesiser from it.  If so, you will need yet another board in there, and a synthesiser to handle the output

In terms of piezos, I'm also a fan of piezo saddles rather than under-saddle acoustic piezos and I have personally found some of the cheaper ones just as good as the eye-wateringly expensive ones.  Nowadays, you can get piezo equipped bridges and also piezo saddles to fit to your existing bridges.  I have used both and not personally had a problem with either.  

Lastly, have a look at ArtecSounds website.  Some of Artec products are as cheap as chips but, to be honest, I have yet to come across one that hasn't punched way, way above its weight. 

Definitely NOT aiming for an acoustically active top.  I may well put a soundhole in the top, but it'll just be for appearances and not intended to serve any real function.

Also definitely NOT to drive a synth.  I put a GK3 pickup onto my last Bailey build, and that's my synth driver guitar now.

I AM after either/both of options 1 & 2 - and not entirely sure right now what the difference is between them! 

I'd concluded that I'd need some sort of preamp to boost the piezo before switching between that and the magnetic/s ahead of the jack socket.  I thought the preamp (with tone controls) would help refine the acoustic sound too.  I was thinking of a mini toggle to have either acoustic/magnetic/both outputs, and separate volume controls for the piezo/acoustic (on the pre-amp) and the magnetic (as normal).  Then I could blend the piezo into the magnetic, or have one or the other on their own.

Re Artec, I'd already looked at Axesrus (often first port of call!)  and spotted this.    Then I'd use an acoustic bridge & saddle, with a piezo fitted under the saddle.  (Steel strings).


@ICBM

ICBM said:
but I have the perfect magnetic pickup if you want to use it as an electro-acoustic - with acoustic strings - rather than an electric with a piezo and electric strings... a Bartolini 3AV that’s missing it’s original soundhole mount.

Current thinking is that I'm going to use piezo / electric strings rather than a soundhole pickup.  Although current thinking is subject to change when someone points out that current thinking is daft!!

Andyjr1515

Happy Birthday  @TTony !! 

ICBM

TTony said:

@ICBM

Current thinking is that I'm going to use piezo / electric strings rather than a soundhole pickup.  Although current thinking is subject to change when someone points out that current thinking is daft!!

It's not daft, but in my opinion you won't get even half-convincing acoustic sounds with light electric strings and a plain 3rd. Electric guitars fitted with piezo bridges and strung like that just sound like odd electric guitars usually... I think you do need more of an acoustic-type bridge and strings.

But in my opinion, the best sound actually comes from a combination of the two - things like the Taylor T5 (even though its 'piezo' sound is actually a body sensor), the Crafter sort-of copy of it, and the Fender HMT Telecaster which is still my favourite of all of them - at least if I'd liked the neck.

But...

If you're using even nickel strings with a wound 3rd, you'll need a pickup like the Bartolini with 2nd/3rd-string compensation - or perhaps strangely, but logically if you think about it - a vintage-stagger Strat pickup would be perfect. (I have one of those too... hint . )

The Bartolini isn't really a soundhole pickup - it's more like an electric pickup that came in a soundhole mount. It was last used in a Strat-type guitar to get a jazzy 'acoustic' sound in the neck position - but one thing that makes it good for your sort of project is that it's a no-baseplate design so it would be a very clean fit if mounted in a front recess with no pickup ring.

I'm not saying this purely because I want you to buy my pickup(s) . I've really tried to square the acoustic/electric circle a lot - the most successful attempts so far have been the HMT Tele, and a Taylor 312CE which I fitted with an extra Rare Earth pickup... but which fed back a bit too much with distortion, which the Fender didn't.

TTony

Thanks @Andyjr1515 ;

TTony

Having reflected over a lunchtime bacon sandwich sat in the sunshine ...

... I think perhaps I was trying to make 1 guitar do 2 things. 



Which is daft when I could just make 2 guitars.

So, guitar #1
- Hollowbody (hollowed out solid with centre block for the bridge)
- carved top (PRS hollowbody style)
- couple of magnetics
- piezo with make-it-sound-decent gubbins - possible a TOM bridge with undersaddles
- all switchable to be mag/acoustic/blended

And, guitar #2
- acoustaonic alike
- flat top
- with soundhole, mainly for aesthetics
- perhaps the Bartolini is the way to go with this one?
- possibly with an extra mag pickup or poss another piezo, but under bridge acoustic style for this one


What say you, oh wise ones?

WezV

I really like combining acoustic and electric construction styles 

I'm always less sure on the acoustasonic style which is closer to an electric and relies on the circuit to do all the clever acoustic bits.   It's better at getting acoustic sounds, but a much trickier build with the parts easily available. 

 Probably a more usable instrument for more styles, but less fun as a guitar building project

ICBM

TTony said:

And, guitar #2
- acoustaonic alike
- flat top
- with soundhole, mainly for aesthetics
- perhaps the Bartolini is the way to go with this one?
- possibly with an extra mag pickup or poss another piezo, but under bridge acoustic style for this one

Any solution that involves buying the Bartolini is the correct solution .

More seriously - yes, it would still work even with a soundhole. You could either make a mounting bracket for it, or perhaps more simply, fit it through the top separately... it's actually advised to be fitted at the *bridge* end of the soundhole by Bartolini, unlike most other soundhole pickups which tend to go at the neck end - ie more like a Strat middle pickup - so a position a bit like the Taylor T5's might also work well.

Jez6345789

I have also been pondering something similar as a parts build. I hate the quack of piezo so the Fishman modelling makes the Acoustasonic interesting but expensive to put in a DIY build. 

So I was looking at the idea of these using impulse response probably small enough to build into a cavity and simple one-knob control. 

TTony

I'd not seen that before @Jez6345789 ;

Might be worth playing with, just as a "sound changer" for my existing electro-acoustics.

Wonder how it would work with a piezo source from a pseudo-acoustic rather than a sound source from a "proper" acoustically designed guitar?

ICBM

TTony said:

Wonder how it would work with a piezo source from a pseudo-acoustic rather than a sound source from a "proper" acoustically designed guitar?

Probably fine. The signal from a piezo UST is about 90% string and 10% guitar body anyway, like the signal from a magnetic pickup.

It’s true that the 10% is important though - a modelling system like the Fishman Aura needs to be set for the type of guitar the pickup is in.

Jez6345789

The slightly more complex version of that would be the Mooer Radar installed in a cavity then you can upload your own and I have no knowledge of this but it should be possible to make your own that you have tuned to the body through Eq or whatever. Listening to how dramatic some of the acoustic IR out there sound I really need to have a play. Just have not had the time to deep dive into IR. 

Rabs

@TTony   found this little vid. Thought it may be of interest.