Always-on pedal for an AC15C1

gatheredinsong

Cols said:

BintyTwanger77 said:

Cols said:

Out of curiosity, why don’t you want to use a buffer?  Preventing signal loss over long cable runs or pedal chains is precisely what they’re for.

I currently use a buffer, the Bonafide buffer in my Polytune. It’s fine, but to me guitar sounds better straight into the amp... I’m probably overthinking this as usual 

How extensive is your pedal chain?

Bear in mind that the output from the last pedal in your chain is what’s ultimately driving the amp.  If you have a pedal with high output impedance last in the chain, it might affect the top end even if you have a buffer at the beginning.

At the risk of overdoing things, you could always try a second buffer right before the amp.

Providence System Tuner instead of the Polytune might be a good solution for this as you can go back into it after pedals and then buffer the signal back to the amp. In theory a good solution if you just want to restore the guitar into amp tone. 

gatheredinsong

Another end of chain idea would be a small buffered boost like the Fulltone 2b that you could also use as a solo boost. 

BintyTwanger77

gatheredinsong said:

Cols said:

BintyTwanger77 said:

Cols said:

Out of curiosity, why don’t you want to use a buffer?  Preventing signal loss over long cable runs or pedal chains is precisely what they’re for.

I currently use a buffer, the Bonafide buffer in my Polytune. It’s fine, but to me guitar sounds better straight into the amp... I’m probably overthinking this as usual 

How extensive is your pedal chain?

Bear in mind that the output from the last pedal in your chain is what’s ultimately driving the amp.  If you have a pedal with high output impedance last in the chain, it might affect the top end even if you have a buffer at the beginning.

At the risk of overdoing things, you could always try a second buffer right before the amp.

Providence System Tuner instead of the Polytune might be a good solution for this as you can go back into it after pedals and then buffer the signal back to the amp. In theory a good solution if you just want to restore the guitar into amp tone. 

Just looked at these online, looks very nifty indeed.

gatheredinsong

BintyTwanger77 said:

gatheredinsong said:

Cols said:

BintyTwanger77 said:

Cols said:

Out of curiosity, why don’t you want to use a buffer?  Preventing signal loss over long cable runs or pedal chains is precisely what they’re for.

I currently use a buffer, the Bonafide buffer in my Polytune. It’s fine, but to me guitar sounds better straight into the amp... I’m probably overthinking this as usual 

How extensive is your pedal chain?

Bear in mind that the output from the last pedal in your chain is what’s ultimately driving the amp.  If you have a pedal with high output impedance last in the chain, it might affect the top end even if you have a buffer at the beginning.

At the risk of overdoing things, you could always try a second buffer right before the amp.

Providence System Tuner instead of the Polytune might be a good solution for this as you can go back into it after pedals and then buffer the signal back to the amp. In theory a good solution if you just want to restore the guitar into amp tone. 

Just looked at these online, looks very nifty indeed.

Does your Polytune have the option of switching the buffer on and off? If so, could be worth quickly trying your Polytune at the front of the pedal chain with the buffer switched OFF, then moving it to the end of the chain and switching the buffer ON, as an attempt to gauge if having a buffer at the end makes any audible difference? I don't know if this would make any discernible difference but if the results are pleasing you could either buy another bonafide buffer (or other standalone small buffer) for the end of the pedal chain or invest in something like the System Tuner for a tidy solution.

Certain YouTube videos would have you believe that not all buffers are created equal, but most people seem to like the TC bonafide buffer, from what I've read.

sweepy

ThorpyFx Fat General or Heavy Water would work well

BintyTwanger77

sweepy said:

ThorpyFx Fat General or Heavy Water would work well

Great suggestions, thanks. On a complete whim, I’ve ended up ordering a Chase Bliss Condor. It does WAY more than I’m looking for, but I’ve always wanted to try one out and I’ve got 14 days to see if it works for me.

gatheredinsong

Nice. You should have said you had that kind of budget!  

meltedbuzzbox

BintyTwanger77 said:

sweepy said:

ThorpyFx Fat General or Heavy Water would work well

Great suggestions, thanks. On a complete whim, I’ve ended up ordering a Chase Bliss Condor. It does WAY more than I’m looking for, but I’ve always wanted to try one out and I’ve got 14 days to see if it works for me.

ahh the old sledge hammer to crack a nut special

good work sir 

BintyTwanger77

meltedbuzzbox said:

BintyTwanger77 said:

sweepy said:

ThorpyFx Fat General or Heavy Water would work well

Great suggestions, thanks. On a complete whim, I’ve ended up ordering a Chase Bliss Condor. It does WAY more than I’m looking for, but I’ve always wanted to try one out and I’ve got 14 days to see if it works for me.

ahh the old sledge hammer to crack a nut special

good work sir 

Advance review: Pure, unmitigated, 100% GAS-fuelled impulse buy, will most probably return.

keir

BintyTwanger77 said:

meltedbuzzbox said:

BintyTwanger77 said:

sweepy said:

ThorpyFx Fat General or Heavy Water would work well

Great suggestions, thanks. On a complete whim, I’ve ended up ordering a Chase Bliss Condor. It does WAY more than I’m looking for, but I’ve always wanted to try one out and I’ve got 14 days to see if it works for me.

ahh the old sledge hammer to crack a nut special

good work sir 

Advance review: Pure, unmitigated, 100% GAS-fuelled impulse buy, will most probably return.

https://youtu.be/asBOScUQThY

You’re in for a treat mate

ICBM

There’s something about “tone suck” that you may not know...

A friend of mine had a large pedalboard with a mix of Boss pedals, a Cry Baby and a few true bypass pedals - despite the Boss buffers, the tone with all the pedals off compared to the guitar straight into the amp was terrible.

To make it easier to try to work out where the problem was coming from and save faffing around plugging and unplugging cables, I ran the whole pedalboard in the loop of my Boss LS-2. With the level set to the same (on the controls), it was obvious that the signal through the pedalboard was slightly quieter than the bypass as well as worse-sounding. So I increased the loop level until they were identical, and... the tone suck disappeared - completely.

We then compared it to the guitar straight into the amp and there was also no difference.

Even more surprising, when I then increased the loop level very slightly - but not enough to create an obvious volume boost - it was then the *direct* sound which seemed to “suck tone”.

In other words this is simply the known psycho-acoustic effect where a small change in volume is perceived as a tone change and not a volume change.

While it’s true that some pedals do definitely alter the bypass tone, I’m fairly sure that the vast majority of problems guitarists have with “tone suck” from buffered pedals are due to this alone. The simple solution is just to turn the amp up very slightly .

stickyfiddle

Wis for @ICBM as ever. 

I've had loads of pedals that people have suggest have "terrible bypass" but never noticed. Because I don't use any sort of loop switcher, I always just use my ears to set the amp based on whatever the signal chain is, and never worry about comparison to the sound with just a cable.

thermionic

I haven’t experimented like that myself @ICBM but I don’t doubt your conclusion. But I always thought it a bad (probably purely cost-cutting) decision by a company like Boss to include a buffer with a gain of less than 1 in their pedals. Even more so when they expect you to connect several of their pedals in series. Would it have killed them to manufacture a buffer with a gain of 1?

ICBM

thermionic said:

I haven’t experimented like that myself @ICBM but I don’t doubt your conclusion. But I always thought it a bad (probably purely cost-cutting) decision by a company like Boss to include a buffer with a gain of less than 1 in their pedals. Even more so when they expect you to connect several of their pedals in series. Would it have killed them to manufacture a buffer with a gain of 1?

Yes, this is something that frustrates me too. Just adding a single transistor gain stage - which can be absolutely transparent over the guitar frequency range - to bring the level up to unity, or using an IC-based switching buffer with true unity gain, would solve the problem completely and cost pennies at the quantities they make.

It might well have prevented this whole “true bypass” fashion - undoing all the good work Boss and others did in the late 70s to fix the many problems with mechanical switching - from taking off in the first place.

thermionic

I don’t think they’d need to add much, as the buffer is a single transistor gain stage afaik, and not dissimilar to fancy boutique boosts that people pay large sums of money for!

ICBM

thermionic said:

I don’t think they’d need to add much, as the buffer is a single transistor gain stage afaik, and not dissimilar to fancy boutique boosts that people pay large sums of money for!

The Boss buffers are emitter-followers, which is a configuration that must have slightly less than unity gain - they couldn't fix it by altering this stage, but adding another single-transistor stage before the output buffer to make up the loss would do. Transistors cost so little in the volumes Boss use them that it probably wouldn't affect the selling price of the pedal significantly at all.

gatheredinsong

I feel like we need to all sign a letter to Boss offering @ICBM 's consultancy services. 

ICBM

gatheredinsong said:

I feel like we need to all sign a letter to Boss offering @ICBM 's consultancy services. 

Ha .

I'm certain they wouldn't be interested, since they've never fixed any of the other commonly-reported problems which go back decades either - eg the SD-1's bypass bleed and the GE-7's excessive noise.

Hattigol

keir said:

BintyTwanger77 said:

meltedbuzzbox said:

BintyTwanger77 said:

sweepy said:

ThorpyFx Fat General or Heavy Water would work well

Great suggestions, thanks. On a complete whim, I’ve ended up ordering a Chase Bliss Condor. It does WAY more than I’m looking for, but I’ve always wanted to try one out and I’ve got 14 days to see if it works for me.

ahh the old sledge hammer to crack a nut special

good work sir 

Advance review: Pure, unmitigated, 100% GAS-fuelled impulse buy, will most probably return.

https://youtu.be/asBOScUQThY

You’re in for a treat mate

That's the first time I have ever watched a pedal review and still not known what it actually does.

dilbert

Hattigol said:

That's the first time I have ever watched a pedal review and still not known what it actually does.

Emperor's clothes?