Is Fender Custom Shop almost entirely about aesthetics ?

dindude

monquixote said:

The difference between an AO and a custom shop is mostly relicing.

  Agreed that since they put slightly bigger frets and a 9.5 radius on them the difference to an NOS CS is a lot closer. However, having been on a recent search for a maple board Tele, if you can find an AO in the UK in the first place then you have the choice of exactly 1 colour (for the 50’s one) and you have to watch the weight. I know you got a cracking one for a cracking price, I’d hang on to it if I were you (or sell it to me!), the shortage of Ash means that this one is going to be a little scarce for a while.

Basically my search for a Tele at £1k quite quickly had me looking at Custom Shop stuff - you’re driven to this if you want a 2-piece body of decent weight and decent spec and with a range of colours without a thick gloopy finish.

I’ve since had a word with myself and have decided to put together my own in the end. 

I’m not adverse to custom shop stuff though - I bought a NOS Strat a few years ago and it’s great - buy well once and you don’t need to think about it again.

UnclePsychosis

dindude said:

Basically my search for a Tele at £1k quite quickly had me looking at Custom Shop stuff - you’re driven to this if you want a 2-piece body of decent weight and decent spec and with a range of colours without a thick gloopy finish.

^^^this is, sadly, true. 

There's no doubting that CS Fenders are excellent guitars but Fender definitely use aesthetic qualities (like available finishes) as a way of pushing you 'up' the range. I wouldn't go so far as saying you're "just" paying for different paint but its a definite sales tactic by Fender. 

thegummy

RaymondLin said:

TINMAN82 said:

DesWalker said:

My original question was based on searching for which CS models charge the least premium for aesthetics.

I think the answer to this is probably “the cheapest one”. The more expensive they get, the more you’re paying a premium for aesthetic appointments and finishing. NOS tend to be cheaper than journeyman/ light relic and so on up the chain. 

If you look around and aren’t afraid to haggle it’s possible to save some cash on new but older CS stock. The fretboard classifieds seem to have a surprisingly constant flow of good (used) CS deals too. 

Per se, CS is worth the outlay IMO. It’s a tactile, sensory, aural thing, not something that can be scientifically proven in a controlled trial or by microscopic examination of wood fibres. They are more than just tools.

This last paragraph is where the crux of it, because it’s not tangible and it’s all subjective, it’s hard to quantify and measure thus can charge as much as they want.  It’s like a painting, is it worth £100million? Only the buyer can answer that.

A painting is an example of something that has no functional value so the whole value of any painting is just how much someone likes its aesthetics.

To me that seems to be what the question is - is that the kind of value that going from top-end mass produced Fender to a Custom Shop gets.

There's nothing objective that can't be scientifically proven so anything that can't be proven can't actually be better.

The truth is though that no one has tried to scientifically compare Fender mass produced guitars to Custom Shop so no one knows if there is anything that can be proven to be better.

thegummy

UnclePsychosis said:

dindude said:

Basically my search for a Tele at £1k quite quickly had me looking at Custom Shop stuff - you’re driven to this if you want a 2-piece body of decent weight and decent spec and with a range of colours without a thick gloopy finish.

^^^this is, sadly, true. 

There's no doubting that CS Fenders are excellent guitars but Fender definitely use aesthetic qualities (like available finishes) as a way of pushing you 'up' the range. I wouldn't go so far as saying you're "just" paying for different paint but its a definite sales tactic by Fender. 

100% - they restrict arbitrary specs/features to higher models in the range. Anyone who is happy with the Player range but wants a specific spec or feature that wouldn't cost any or much more has to move up to a higher model to get that feature.

Thankfully some things can be upgraded/changed by the player but annoyingly others can't be.

Blueingreen

I've never owned a Fender guitar so no-one could call me a fan.  (I've owned Fender basses, so I'm not a hater either).

But I've tried out my fair share of Fenders in shops and I always felt there was a noticeable improvement in playability with Custom Shop models.  I don't like relicing and I don't know much about period correct aesthetics, so if there was no difference apart from aesthetics I would be daft to consider buying Custom Shop.

I don't doubt some of the mass produced models play every bit as well as CS models, but you have to find them and I think that's probably more to do with luck than judgement.

So if I did buy a Fender I bet it would be a Custom Shop.  If I don't have one it's because they haven't compared well to Suhr and Tom Anderson, not because I don't think they are better than the mass produced stuff.

LPManic

You would like to think that the price difference is also to do with the production process. Builders that are more skilled, have more time to spend on each guitar, better tools etc etc. But again this is just my imagining of how a Custom shop level guitar is built. 

It's not just about aesthetics.

And as somebody said above, it you are willing and able to pay a certain amount for a guitar that you believe is worth the price difference, then the guitar is worth it.

monquixote

dindude said:

monquixote said:

The difference between an AO and a custom shop is mostly relicing.

  Agreed that since they put slightly bigger frets and a 9.5 radius on them the difference to an NOS CS is a lot closer. However, having been on a recent search for a maple board Tele, if you can find an AO in the UK in the first place then you have the choice of exactly 1 colour (for the 50’s one) and you have to watch the weight. I know you got a cracking one for a cracking price, I’d hang on to it if I were you (or sell it to me!), the shortage of Ash means that this one is going to be a little scarce for a while.

Basically my search for a Tele at £1k quite quickly had me looking at Custom Shop stuff - you’re driven to this if you want a 2-piece body of decent weight and decent spec and with a range of colours without a thick gloopy finish.

I’ve since had a word with myself and have decided to put together my own in the end. 

I’m not adverse to custom shop stuff though - I bought a NOS Strat a few years ago and it’s great - buy well once and you don’t need to think about it again.

Yep that's the thing.

You have to want exactly what the standard spec looks like.

If I'd got a CS the only thing I would change would be massive frets and I could get feline to do it to CS standard for less than the uplift of a NOS CS Tele.

You also have to either try a few or get lucky on one that is the right weight.

DesWalker

Thanks for all the contributions to this thread. An interesting read.

GoldenEraGuitars

DesWalker said:

Thanks for all the contributions to this thread. An interesting read.

They’re not done yet mate. Come back on page 11

stickyfiddle

UnclePsychosis said:

dindude said:

Basically my search for a Tele at £1k quite quickly had me looking at Custom Shop stuff - you’re driven to this if you want a 2-piece body of decent weight and decent spec and with a range of colours without a thick gloopy finish.

^^^this is, sadly, true. 

There's no doubting that CS Fenders are excellent guitars but Fender definitely use aesthetic qualities (like available finishes) as a way of pushing you 'up' the range. I wouldn't go so far as saying you're "just" paying for different paint but its a definite sales tactic by Fender. 

Yep, that's absolutely the model.

I'm pining for a 72 Thinline Tele at the moment. There used to be one in the AV series, and the Classic/Vintera has variously come and gone but if you want one with decent pickups and tall frets you're in the CS instantly. I'm hoping they bring one out in the next round of AO versions as I'll be there on day one, assuming non-silly colours...

p90fool

Rather than speculating as to what the differences are and what improvements you might get when paying Custom Shop prices, why don't you just decide what specifications you want and see if a cheaper Fender would work for you?

Say you wanted a reasonably light alder body, a six point trem, vintage-voiced pickups and a rosewood board with a 9.5 radius for example. 

You can buy a US-made Fender anywhere with those specs, without paying an extra two grand for a back story about who built it under so-and-so's supervision.

Custom Shop Fenders do not correct faults made in the build or parts quality on American Original guitars. They do not use "better" components, it's the same stuff but with added romance and/or finish ageing. 

Don't fall victim to the "it costs more so it must be better" line. Better than what? What's wrong with, or don't you like about a non Custom Shop guitar?

Custom Shops are supposed to be there so you can specify a guitar you can't get elsewhere, not so you can just buy a perfectly normal Strat except lovingly assembly by your new friends Abigail and Todd, who'll put a nice letter in the case. 

RaymondLin

p90fool said:

Rather than speculating as to what the differences are and what improvements you might get when paying Custom Shop prices, why don't you just decide what specifications you want and see if a cheaper Fender would work for you?

Say you wanted a reasonably light alder body, a six point trem, vintage-voiced pickups and a rosewood board with a 9.5 radius for example. 

You can buy a US-made Fender anywhere with those specs, without paying an extra two grand for a back story about who built it under so-and-so's supervision.

Custom Shop Fenders do not correct faults made in the build or parts quality on American Original guitars. They do not use "better" components, it's the same stuff but with added romance and/or finish ageing. 

Don't fall victim to the "it costs more so it must be better" line. Better than what? What's wrong with, or don't you like about a non Custom Shop guitar?

Custom Shops are supposed to be there so you can specify a guitar you can't get elsewhere, not so you can just buy a perfectly normal Strat except lovingly assembly by your new friends Abigail and Todd, who'll put a nice letter in the case. 

This man speaks sense.

At least give the cheaper stuff a chance if they tick all your boxes spec wise.  It's a bolt on guitar, it's idea when it was created was to make an affordable guitar for the masses.  The idea of the Strat isn't to make a guitar out of most people's reach.

Pick the spec that you want and see if you can get it outside the Custom Shop.  I did, I found it in the Mexican line, albeit at the time it had to be discontinued so I bought used, so double win.

adam1990

monquixote said:

The difference between an AO and a custom shop is mostly relicing.

Would make for a good comparison an AO and a NOS custom shop of the same spec.

Having played and AO and CS Closet Classic in a shop last year it was very little in it for the ones I played (Both 60's double bound Tele) The CS had the slimmer neck and bigger frets that felt like it has been played in more and the AO just felt like a brand new guitar with a little fatter neck and narrower frets.

The CS set up was better assuming the shop hadn't touched it compared to the AO which needed a little work on the action and intonation.

Both were great guitars and not worlds away, just a slightly different spec and set up. I already had an AO 60's Tele and that experience hasn't made me sell it for a CS version.

But I think it would be really hard to tell apart 2 identical spec guitars 1 CS NOS and 1 AO set up the same way. 

monquixote

adam1990 said:

monquixote said:

The difference between an AO and a custom shop is mostly relicing.

Would make for a good comparison an AO and a NOS custom shop of the same spec.

Having played and AO and CS Closet Classic in a shop last year it was very little in it for the ones I played (Both 60's double bound Tele) The CS had the slimmer neck and bigger frets that felt like it has been played in more and the AO just felt like a brand new guitar with a little fatter neck and narrower frets.

The CS set up was better assuming the shop hadn't touched it compared to the AO which needed a little work on the action and intonation.

Both were great guitars and not worlds away, just a slightly different spec and set up. I already had an AO 60's Tele and that experience hasn't made me sell it for a CS version.

But I think it would be really hard to tell apart 2 identical spec guitars 1 CS NOS and 1 AO set up the same way. 

I think that's a really good summary.

I did quite a bit of digging before buying an AO and from an AO to a NOS Custom Shop of identical spec you are going to get:

Probably lighter wood (although in my case not)

A bit more of a played in feel due to some extra time fettling

A slightly more authentic Nitro finish

None of that was worth double the price to me, but if I'd wanted an unusual profile, colour, or relicing I can see exactly where the money goes.

TINMAN82

adam1990 said:

monquixote said:

The difference between an AO and a custom shop is mostly relicing.

Would make for a good comparison an AO and a NOS custom shop of the same spec.

Having played and AO and CS Closet Classic in a shop last year it was very little in it for the ones I played (Both 60's double bound Tele) The CS had the slimmer neck and bigger frets that felt like it has been played in more and the AO just felt like a brand new guitar with a little fatter neck and narrower frets.

The CS set up was better assuming the shop hadn't touched it compared to the AO which needed a little work on the action and intonation.

Both were great guitars and not worlds away, just a slightly different spec and set up. I already had an AO 60's Tele and that experience hasn't made me sell it for a CS version.

But I think it would be really hard to tell apart 2 identical spec guitars 1 CS NOS and 1 AO set up the same way. 

CS owner, previous AV owner, have played AO. Agree with the NOS/similar setup comparison. 

Bear in mind AO are pricey at £1500-1600 (pre likely price bump this/ next year) so probably right at the line where diminishing returns really kick in.

That said, you’d have to pick you’re AO/AV to compete. The hand finishing on my AV tele neck was heavy handed with over bevelled edges to the point where it was nearly conical so the strings slipped off the edges too easily. An expensive refret and re-radius helped but changed the feel. The “nitro” finish isn’t the same either. It chipped off in large chunks at the slightest bump. The finish was also applied a bit unevenly. That said, it was an unusually light tele under 7lbs and the pickups were great.

I guess, silly pricing aside, CS quality is either better (on average and beyond mere aesthetics) or it’s not. I believe it is. That decided, the question is whether it’s worth the upcharge. For many it won’t be and that’s fair enough. If they expand the AO line to include something more desirable I’d consider it in the future. But that would be a compromise to save money and not because I genuinely believe it would be equal to CS.

chris78

I'm going to take issue with the "there's no difference between an AO and NOS CS" comment.

The radius and frets are probably the same - most CS are 9.5 radius and 6105 frets. 

The finish is different. AO is poly undercoat, nitro top coat. NOS CS is nitro. In my experience, AO finishes are stickier. Can that be sorted? yup, but you don't need to on a NOS in my experience.
My favourite neck profiles are all CS - 10/56 v, 63 & 65 c shape. Can't get those on a factory model.
Fender are using more pieces of wood on the factory stuff now. There aren't as many 2 piece around now. Doesn't that affect the sound? Probably not, but it reduces cost. They're using finishes that hide the amount of pieces, but I've read about 4 pieces on AO models in some cases.
Neck woods - always flat sawn on AOs, generally quarter or rift sawn on CS. If rosewood, it's always AAA on CS. Does that affect sound? Again probably not, but it's more expensive to make.
Pickups - different people like different ones, but CS are now mainly hand wound, AO are machine wound.

Just a few examples of where the factory models cut costs to keep prices down in comparison to AOs. AOs are great guitars, some will be better than CS. Some are lighter than CS, some heavier etc. It's about sitting in a shop, playing a load and see what you fancy, but I'd suggest that if you picked up 10 of each, 8 NOS CS will win and 2 AOs will win.

GoldenEraGuitars

chris78 said:

The finish isn’t different. AO is acrylic sealer, “nitro” top coat. NOS CS is acrylic sealer, “nitro” top coat

Fixed that for you

RaymondLin

I want to do a blind test of them, some masking tape over the back of the headstock covering it and then just pick the best one.  

TINMAN82

GoldenEraGuitars said:

chris78 said:

The finish isn’t different. AO is acrylic sealer, “nitro” top coat. NOS CS is acrylic sealer, “nitro” top coat

Fixed that for you

Names might be the same but formulas are definitely different. Tactile feel and durability differ. Anyone who owned/owns a thin coat Pure Vintage will attest to that. 

crunchman

chris78 said:

I'm going to take issue with the "there's no difference between an AO and NOS CS" comment.

The radius and frets are probably the same - most CS are 9.5 radius and 6105 frets. 

The finish is different. AO is poly undercoat, nitro top coat. NOS CS is nitro. In my experience, AO finishes are stickier. Can that be sorted? yup, but you don't need to on a NOS in my experience.
My favourite neck profiles are all CS - 10/56 v, 63 & 65 c shape. Can't get those on a factory model.
Fender are using more pieces of wood on the factory stuff now. There aren't as many 2 piece around now. Doesn't that affect the sound? Probably not, but it reduces cost. They're using finishes that hide the amount of pieces, but I've read about 4 pieces on AO models in some cases.
Neck woods - always flat sawn on AOs, generally quarter or rift sawn on CS. If rosewood, it's always AAA on CS. Does that affect sound? Again probably not, but it's more expensive to make.
Pickups - different people like different ones, but CS are now mainly hand wound, AO are machine wound.

Just a few examples of where the factory models cut costs to keep prices down in comparison to AOs. AOs are great guitars, some will be better than CS. Some are lighter than CS, some heavier etc. It's about sitting in a shop, playing a load and see what you fancy, but I'd suggest that if you picked up 10 of each, 8 NOS CS will win and 2 AOs will win.

I haven't played many AOs, but I played quite a few of the old AVRIs.  I have one, so I used to use one when trying out an amp in a shop if the shop had one in stock.  A lot of them sounded dead in comparison to mine.  They definitely vary.

Custom Shop guitars vary too.  If you gave all Fenders in the current range a mark out of 20, Custom Shop would probably vary between 14 and 20, AVRI/AO would probably vary between 10 and 18, Mexican would probably vary between 7 and and 16. Squiers probably vary between 4 and 12 depending on where in the range they sit.  There is nothing dreadful in the current range, hence nothing below 4.

You might score things differently from me, but a great AVRI/AO will be up there with most Custom Shop guitars, and better than a lot of them, but a really good Mexican one will be better than a bad AVRI, and comparable to some of the poorer output from the Custom Shop.