Jazzmaster - finally got round to reversing the screws on the tremolo plate (then changed my mind)

Philtre

No more string rubbage on the two outer screws on the tremolo plate on my AV 65 Jazzmaster for me! Changed the strings today and took the tremolo unit apart and reversed the two domed outer screws. Why couldn't Fender have used flatter screw heads? Actually, can you buy flatter screws for these?

For reference:

https://mmguitarbar.wordpress.com/2013/05/10/demystifying-the-fender-jazzmaster-and-jaguar-part-3-free-your-mind-and-your-tailpiece-will-follow/

francer

Personally, I’m not convinced this is the way to go myself. It effectively reduces the outside screws to locating lugs, all the load bearing is now done by the middle screw.

I managed to find some countersunk screws on ebay, they don’t quite look right, but they do sit lower than the stock screws and thus allow the strings to clear them, to me this is a better solution.

I can’t give you any science, and I happy to be proven wrong, but to me, loading the middle screw in that way is not something I’d be happy with, but if it works for you, and many others, then I guess  it’s not a problem.

Philtre

@francer

I know that has been a concern for some people. But the outer screws are screwed in all the way so should be taking some of the load. But what load is there, can't be much unless you're going mad with the trem?

Do you have a link for the screws on eBay?

francer

True, it seems to be a popular mod, maybe I’m overthinking It. I know some people have said both parts of that assembly are threaded so it  doesn’t matter but I don’t believe that’s the case, the two parts wouldn’t mate properly unless the threads were perfectly aligned.

i can’t find the actual listing I bought but some searching on OSG says they are  #8-32 x 1/4 Phillips flat head screws.

these certainly look the same as mine https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=+%238-32+x+1%2F4+Phillips+flat+head&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_sop=10&_odkw=fender+jazzmaster&_osacat=0

they do stand out slightly as the trem hole is not countersunk (I don’t fancy risking messing up my trem by countersinking them myself) but since they’re hidden by the strings no one will know except you  

ICBM

Personally, I think it’s better to shim the neck and raise the bridge so the break angle is increased over the bridge as well, than to reverse the screws which leaves the entire string tension being supported by one screw. The holes in the plate are not threaded. The outer screws will act as locators but no more than that.

Philtre

Hmmm...didn't check if the holes in the top are threaded or not just assumed they were. I'll check that.

@ICBM What danger is there if the load is only on the middle screw?

@francer Thanks for the link for the screws on eBay. You reckon those might do the trick? If so, I'll order some. Edit - maybe not the postage is £11.

Philtre

I had to find out if the top plate holes are threaded so I took the bridge off my Jaguar AV where I'd also reversed the screws earlier this year.  They're not threaded. The reason I thought they were was because the threads of the reversed screws were biting into the top plate just enough to hold it. But they're not threaded. I might just try and get some different screws if I can find a supplier in the UK.

ICBM

Philtre said:

@ICBM What danger is there if the load is only on the middle screw?

It's bad engineering practice and is likely to cause trouble. The single screw is probably strong enough to hold the whole ~100lb string tension on its own without shearing off I think, but if the knife edge is only clamped tightly to the plate in the middle then using the arm will probably make it rotate around that point - since the other screws aren't a perfectly precise fit in the holes - and work loose and/or wear the thread.

It's actually a slightly bad design in that Fender should have arranged it so the screws weren't directly under the strings, but given that they did I wouldn't try to fix it by removing two of the three attachments that they thought were necessary.

Philtre

@ICBM Cheers for that.

So, I've taken the unit off the JM again and put the screws back the way they should be. Time to find some different screws...

Philtre

Found these screws:

https://www.accu.co.uk/en/phillips-countersunk-screws/364410-SIK-8-32-1-4-A2

Would they work?

francer

Philtre said:

Found these screws:

https://www.accu.co.uk/en/phillips-countersunk-screws/364410-SIK-8-32-1-4-A2

Would they work?

Haha, I’ve been doing some research and literally logged back in to post that exact same link!

All I can say is I think they could be, I think you might need to take a leap of faith and give it a try. To help you decide whether you think it’s worth it, here’s some pics of mine, I’m almost embarrassed to post it, some people will think it looks shite (well, it’s not great tbh), but they do work for me.

Philtre

@francer Thanks for taking the time to post those pics, I appreciate it. (Though that first pic did mess my head up a bit - looks like a kaleidoscope!)

I can see that those screws work, just the countersunk not quite matching. I did find some others, "pan head". They might work better?

https://www.accu.co.uk/en/phillips-pan-head-screws/70465-SIP-8-32-1-4-A2

(Don't really mind what it looks like as long as it's structurally sound)

JD50

I reversed the screw under the high e of my jag 5 years ago, no issues since.... the screw protrudes slightly over the top plate so it is still supporting any load bearing but is low enough not catch the strings.....  

thermionic

I notice that on mine the holes for the smaller screws (that hold the top plate onto the body) appear to be countersunk. This would be a neat solution for the three larger screws.

Philtre

Philtre said:

@francer Thanks for taking the time to post those pics, I appreciate it. (Though that first pic did mess my head up a bit - looks like a kaleidoscope!)

I can see that those screws work, just the countersunk not quite matching. I did find some others, "pan head". They might work better?

https://www.accu.co.uk/en/phillips-pan-head-screws/70465-SIP-8-32-1-4-A2

(Don't really mind what it looks like as long as it's structurally sound)

Actually, the height of those pan head screws is 0.114 inch or 2.9mm which is probably the same if not a tad higher than the existing dome head screws. The countersunk screw heads are 0.1 inch or 2.54 mm which, when screwed into the plate, probably comes to about 1.5 mm.

NickL

ICBM said:

It's actually a slightly bad design in that Fender should have arranged it so the screws weren't directly under the strings, but given that they did I wouldn't try to fix it by removing two of the three attachments that they thought were necessary.

It's one of the things they have changed on the "Panorama" bridge on the new American Pro Jazzmaster. The outer screws have been moved inwards so they sit between pairs of strings.

francer

Philtre said:

Philtre said:

@francer Thanks for taking the time to post those pics, I appreciate it. (Though that first pic did mess my head up a bit - looks like a kaleidoscope!)

I can see that those screws work, just the countersunk not quite matching. I did find some others, "pan head". They might work better?

https://www.accu.co.uk/en/phillips-pan-head-screws/70465-SIP-8-32-1-4-A2

(Don't really mind what it looks like as long as it's structurally sound)

Actually, the height of those pan head screws is 0.114 inch or 2.9mm which is probably the same if not a tad higher than the existing dome head screws. The countersunk screw heads are 0.1 inch or 2.54 mm which, when screwed into the plate, probably comes to about 1.5 mm.

Yes, I recall someone posted about some panhead type screws on OSG In the recent past, they were allen key type but looked pretty good, but I just can’t find the thread (no pun!) I’m afraid, I have looked for it.

I think the counter sunk screws are helped because the hole in the plate is slightly enlarged just enough for the screw head to sit down in it a little bit, helping to have a lower profile even though they are not fully counter sunk. I think if you were brave and had the skills properly countersinking them would look good but I’d be afraid of overdoing it and making the holes too sloppy if I ever decided to put the old screws back in.

Anyhow, there’s always Fender bullets  ....

Philtre

NickL said:

ICBM said:

It's actually a slightly bad design in that Fender should have arranged it so the screws weren't directly under the strings, but given that they did I wouldn't try to fix it by removing two of the three attachments that they thought were necessary.

It's one of the things they have changed on the "Panorama" bridge on the new American Pro Jazzmaster. The outer screws have been moved inwards so they sit between pairs of strings.

The problem with AVs is they adhere to the original spec, warts and all.

Philtre

Perhaps another solution might be to buy some pan-head screws and file the tops down, and put the originals by in case one needs to sell it.

100 for £5!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8-32x1-4-inch-304-Stainless-Steel-Phillips-Pan-Head-Machine-Screw-Bolt-100pcs-/302353352632

meltedbuzzbox

Philtre said:

Perhaps another solution might be to buy some pan-head screws and file the tops down, and put the originals by in case one needs to sell it.

100 for £5!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8-32x1-4-inch-304-Stainless-Steel-Phillips-Pan-Head-Machine-Screw-Bolt-100pcs-/302353352632

Isn't that the same screw?

Philtre

meltedbuzzbox said:

Philtre said:

Perhaps another solution might be to buy some pan-head screws and file the tops down, and put the originals by in case one needs to sell it.

100 for £5!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8-32x1-4-inch-304-Stainless-Steel-Phillips-Pan-Head-Machine-Screw-Bolt-100pcs-/302353352632

Isn't that the same screw?

Yes, but as I said, to file the tops down a mm or two without messing with the original screws.