New Apple M1 range

stratology

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Any comparisons to Ryzen Zen3 5900X or 5950X yet?? That would interest me.

Arstechnica has a comparison for the Ryzen 7 Pro 4750u, but only for performance with Google Chrome.

Chrome under Rosetta on the M1 is roughly the same as on the Ryzen, the M1 is roughly twice as fast as the Ryzen with both native Chrome and Safari. 

John_A

So, currently running logic with s-gear, Helix native, Waves plug-ins would that run natively or under Rosetta?

the_jaffa

What is Rosetta that keeps being mentioned?

TimmyO

the_jaffa said:

What is Rosetta that keeps being mentioned?

It's the software interface layer (part of MacOS) that is used when the application hasn't been developed with native support for the M1 processor. It means all your old software will work day 1, but adds a performance hit to the M1s potential. As applications get updated they will no longer need to be processed by the Rosetta layer and performance should increase further. 

Some Applications are already native M1, most are not yet 

the_jaffa

TimmyO said:

the_jaffa said:

What is Rosetta that keeps being mentioned?

It's the software interface layer (part of MacOS) that is used when the application hasn't been developed with native support for the M1 processor. It means all your old software will work day 1, but adds a performance hit to the M1s potential. As applications get updated they will no longer need to be processed by the Rosetta layer and performance should increase further. 

Some Applications are already native M1, most are not yet 

Brilliant, thank you. I figured it was going to be something to do with translating but a google hadn't helped.

crunchman

Unless you have a desperate need for a machine now, then waiting might not be a bad option.

The same might be true for Windows as well.  ARM processors are on their way to Windows.  Microsoft has already released an ARM based Surface.  Software support is poor at the moment, but Apple will have given them a big kick up the rear with these new machines.  It's likely to accelerate the process.   The performance benefit in the short term might not be as big on Windows though, as AMD processors are not as far behind as Intel.

goldtop

LooseMoose said:

Ordered and returned.

My brief review, if using a native app? Hella fast. Safari in particular flies but otherwise it was much slower than my 2020 Air when running via Rosetta 2.

I’ve no doubt this is the future but not quite worth making the leap for me yet.

Which app(s)?

monquixote

crunchman said:

Unless you have a desperate need for a machine now, then waiting might not be a bad option.

The same might be true for Windows as well.  ARM processors are on their way to Windows.  Microsoft has already released an ARM based Surface.  Software support is poor at the moment, but Apple will have given them a big kick up the rear with these new machines.  It's likely to accelerate the process.   The performance benefit in the short term might not be as big on Windows though, as AMD processors are not as far behind as Intel.

Unless something dramatic changes no one else has got a competitive desktop class ARM processor. 

I'm sure people are working on one, but I think this is a bit like the iPhone where Apple have caught everyone flat footed and you won't get any decent rivals for a few years.

crunchman

monquixote said:

crunchman said:

Unless you have a desperate need for a machine now, then waiting might not be a bad option.

The same might be true for Windows as well.  ARM processors are on their way to Windows.  Microsoft has already released an ARM based Surface.  Software support is poor at the moment, but Apple will have given them a big kick up the rear with these new machines.  It's likely to accelerate the process.   The performance benefit in the short term might not be as big on Windows though, as AMD processors are not as far behind as Intel.

Unless something dramatic changes no one else has got a competitive desktop class ARM processor. 

I'm sure people are working on one, but I think this is a bit like the iPhone where Apple have caught everyone flat footed and you won't get any decent rivals for a few years.

You might be right, but that ARM powered Surface was several months ago.

ARM might not make as much difference in the Windows market as Intel isn't the only option.  Intel are way behind at the moment.  If Apple had been using AMD chips, then the performance jump wouldn't have looked quite so extraordinary.

Regardless of the short term, it looks like the long future is ARM based, unless the x86 manufacturers come up with some kind of major game changer.

stratology

ARM is just the instruction set. Apple makes the hardware, software, compiler, programming language. All optimised to interact providing the best performance and battery life, rather than a 'lowest common denominator' approach, where a CPU chip has to integrate with 3rd party RAM and controller chips, various operating systems, products from various hardware manufacturers, etc.


Interesting tidbit about low level optimisation:
"Fun fact: retaining and releasing an NSObject takes ~30 nanoseconds on current gen Intel, and ~6.5 nanoseconds on an M1. … and ~14 nanoseconds on an M1 emulating an Intel."

stickyfiddle

stratology said:

ARM is just the instruction set. Apple makes the hardware, software, compiler, programming language. All optimised to interact providing the best performance and battery life, rather than a 'lowest common denominator' approach, where a CPU chip has to integrate with 3rd party RAM and controller chips, various operating systems, products from various hardware manufacturers, etc.


Interesting tidbit about low level optimisation:
"Fun fact: retaining and releasing an NSObject takes ~30 nanoseconds on current gen Intel, and ~6.5 nanoseconds on an M1. … and ~14 nanoseconds on an M1 emulating an Intel."

This seems to be the key bit.  In just the same way iphones have lower on-paper specs than Android stuff but consistently match or beat them in benchmarks

monquixote

stickyfiddle said:

stratology said:

ARM is just the instruction set. Apple makes the hardware, software, compiler, programming language. All optimised to interact providing the best performance and battery life, rather than a 'lowest common denominator' approach, where a CPU chip has to integrate with 3rd party RAM and controller chips, various operating systems, products from various hardware manufacturers, etc.


Interesting tidbit about low level optimisation:
"Fun fact: retaining and releasing an NSObject takes ~30 nanoseconds on current gen Intel, and ~6.5 nanoseconds on an M1. … and ~14 nanoseconds on an M1 emulating an Intel."

This seems to be the key bit.  In just the same way iphones have lower on-paper specs than Android stuff but consistently match or beat them in benchmarks

Yes, One of the reasons you get very good performance on console games. A Switch has got a Tegra 2 which is a fairly old tablet processor, but you get fairly decent graphics as everything is honed and optimised to wring every last bit of performance out of it.

stratology

stratology said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Any comparisons to Ryzen Zen3 5900X or 5950X yet?? That would interest me.

Arstechnica has a comparison for the Ryzen 7 Pro 4750u, but only for performance with Google Chrome.

Chrome under Rosetta on the M1 is roughly the same as on the Ryzen, the M1 is roughly twice as fast as the Ryzen with both native Chrome and Safari. 

Update: Anandtech now has benchmarks that include the 5950X.

stickyfiddle

monquixote said:

stickyfiddle said:

stratology said:

ARM is just the instruction set. Apple makes the hardware, software, compiler, programming language. All optimised to interact providing the best performance and battery life, rather than a 'lowest common denominator' approach, where a CPU chip has to integrate with 3rd party RAM and controller chips, various operating systems, products from various hardware manufacturers, etc.


Interesting tidbit about low level optimisation:
"Fun fact: retaining and releasing an NSObject takes ~30 nanoseconds on current gen Intel, and ~6.5 nanoseconds on an M1. … and ~14 nanoseconds on an M1 emulating an Intel."

This seems to be the key bit.  In just the same way iphones have lower on-paper specs than Android stuff but consistently match or beat them in benchmarks

Yes, One of the reasons you get very good performance on console games. A Switch has got a Tegra 2 which is a fairly old tablet processor, but you get fairly decent graphics as everything is honed and optimised to wring every last bit of performance out of it.

Exactly. And it's why Apple make so much money*, because they don't have 10 middlemen in the value chain that all want their own margin.

(plus dongles, obviously...)

Danny1969

I always thought the PS1 was a great example of getting amazing performance out of what was some very lowly hardware. I think it had something like 2Mb ram and maybe 1Mb on the GPU yet the games pissed all over the PC games at the time

monquixote

Danny1969 said:

I always thought the PS1 was a great example of getting amazing performance out of what was some very lowly hardware. I think it had something like 2Mb ram and maybe 1Mb on the GPU yet the games pissed all over the PC games at the time

Ars Technica did some really awesome articles on that.

Essentially PC architecture is not very well suited for playing games and with the Playstation and even more so with the PS2 Sony optimised them as a graphics pipeline rather than a general purpose computer.

monquixote

https://www.techradar.com/in/amp/news/apple-m1-successor-tipped-to-bring-significant-gains-to-the-macbook-pro-16-inch-2021

Rumour is that the 16 MBP will get the M1X with 12 cores.

Danny1969

Actual real world Logic test mixing a 48 chan live show from a Live engineer

Pablo

@WiresDreamDisasters ;

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested/2

Cinebench and Geekbench results with the 5950x included.

Jetsam1

Reading this it might be worth thinking about a Macbook Air as the next computer. Price is still reasonable and I doubt I would get anywhere with the potential even with that. Just some photo editing and a basic VM. Would do me for a good few years.

I run quite old machines anyway. Wife has a Macbook Air from 2016 and it has been sound. Prob worth a punt.