New Apple M1 range

monquixote

Axe_meister said:

This is a much bigger die compared than in the past, especially phones.
And are on 7nm today, Intel are still struggling with 10nm are back porting to 14nm.
Apple are OK in yields today as they just don't have the volume AMD/Intel are producing at.
Current form factor with 5 core they are probably ok but once you scale up to 8+ cores and more memory on a monolithic die you run into problems.

They've done a clever trick with the Air.

It doesn't actually have one fewer graphics core than the pro they just use a chip with  a failed core and disable it.

The old Spectrum trick.

stratology

Axe_meister said:

Apple are OK in yields today as they just don't have the volume AMD/Intel are producing at.

Do you have any actual numbers for that? If you look at AMD's successful Q3 2019 (highest revenue in a decade) for example, they have a revenue of 1.8 billion, vs. Apple revenue in the same quarter of 53.8 billion...

Do you have numbers of overall AMD chips sold in any quarter, compared to overall sales of iPhones and iPads?

Danny1969

TSMC took over from Samsung  a while ago to make Apple chips but Samsung  might be back in the game now as well according to this 

https://www.notebookcheck.net/TSMC-cannot-meet-the-entire-Apple-M1-order-volume-Samsung-could-jump-to-the-rescue.503905.0.html

crunchman

stratology said:

Axe_meister said:

Apple are OK in yields today as they just don't have the volume AMD/Intel are producing at.

Do you have any actual numbers for that? If you look at AMD's successful Q3 2019 (highest revenue in a decade) for example, they have a revenue of 1.8 billion, vs. Apple revenue in the same quarter of 53.8 billion...

Do you have numbers of overall AMD chips sold in any quarter, compared to overall sales of iPhones and iPads?

Most of Apple's revenue will be from iPhones and the App Store / iTunes (or whatever their streaming service is called these days).  The Mac hardware will be a very small part of that, and CPUs only a fraction of that.

AMD chips are in short supply at the moment though.  The CPU that I put in my machine 6 months ago is £50 more now than it was then.  They just don't seem to be able to make enough of them.  I don't know if Covid disruption is part of that.

As said above, they are on 7nm technology.   I think the current generation is the third (and last) on 7nm.  They are way ahead of Intel.  Even with the extra £50 on the price, the AMD I've got would still out-perform any Intel chip I could get for the same money.

Looking at what is happening, I suspect that the long term future for Windows PCs is ARM based.  I think I said above that Microsoft released an ARM based Surface several months ago.  There is limited software support at the moment, but it will come in the next few years.  I suspect that these latest Apple machines will accelerate the process.

In the meantime, the 5nm chips from AMD next year should be faster and less power hungry than the current generation, and will probably put Intel even further behind if AMD can manufacture them in enough quantity.

Jez6345789

I do think ifApple can  keep all its ducks lined up over the next few years it could seriously change the map. AMD are still lumbered with Windows and endless legacy overhead even if they run it on ARM. Apples Love of tight hardware software integration has struggled to look very good performance wise  in  a world where they were locked into intel.

crunchman

Jez6345789 said:

I do think ifApple can  keep all its ducks lined up over the next few years it could seriously change the map. AMD are still lumbered with Windows and endless legacy overhead even if they run it on ARM. Apples Love of tight hardware software integration has struggled to look very good performance wise  in  a world where they were locked into intel.

At the same time the open platforms, where any manufacturer can jump on board, like Windows and Android mean much cheaper hardware.  Android has about 75% of the phone market worldwide.  Unless Apple does bring out much cheaper devices, then that won't change.

I have an Android phone that cost me about £150.  It's fine.  It does everything I need it to.  I'd like a slightly nicer camera, but the one it has is reasonable.  It's got more pixels than you can fit on a 4k screen.  The next £150 phone I buy will be better still.

The average new Windows PC will be fine for most users who just want to watch YouTube, send emails, and do a bit of word processing.  For those uses, a Chromebook is also fine.  The cheapest MacBook Air is £999.  Most people are just going to spend less than half that on whatever Currys PC World has in stock, or whatever is cheapest on Amazon.

Unless Apple comes out with some devices at a lower price point, then it will always be in a niche market.  Their margins will be far higher than the average Android/Windows manufacturer, and they might make more profit, but Android and Windows are likely to be the biggest market for the foreseeable future.

RaymondLin

crunchman said:

Jez6345789 said:

I do think ifApple can  keep all its ducks lined up over the next few years it could seriously change the map. AMD are still lumbered with Windows and endless legacy overhead even if they run it on ARM. Apples Love of tight hardware software integration has struggled to look very good performance wise  in  a world where they were locked into intel.

At the same time the open platforms, where any manufacturer can jump on board, like Windows and Android mean much cheaper hardware.  Android has about 75% of the phone market worldwide.  Unless Apple does bring out much cheaper devices, then that won't change.

I have an Android phone that cost me about £150.  It's fine.  It does everything I need it to.  I'd like a slightly nicer camera, but the one it has is reasonable.  It's got more pixels than you can fit on a 4k screen.  The next £150 phone I buy will be better still.

The average new Windows PC will be fine for most users who just want to watch YouTube, send emails, and do a bit of word processing.  For those uses, a Chromebook is also fine.  The cheapest MacBook Air is £999.  Most people are just going to spend less than half that on whatever Currys PC World has in stock, or whatever is cheapest on Amazon.

Unless Apple comes out with some devices at a lower price point, then it will always be in a niche market.  Their margins will be far higher than the average Android/Windows manufacturer, and they might make more profit, but Android and Windows are likely to be the biggest market for the foreseeable future.

That's the iPad Mini.  Something for consumption, your YouTube, send emails, and do a bit of word processing. 

Danny1969

The Mac mini is no good as a laptop replacement though, you can't sit on the sofa or in the garden with a Mac mini !

crunchman

Danny1969 said:

The Mac mini is no good as a laptop replacement though, you can't sit on the sofa or in the garden with a Mac mini !

It also doesn't have a proper keyboard.  My wife uses a laptop for work.  All she needs is a platform that can log in remotely, but she does need a proper keyboard.

Edit.  Sorry, read that as an iPad Mini.

Mac Mini is still £600 for the most basic spec.  Scan sell an AMD Ryzen based machine for £430 that would be enough for 80% of people's needs.

goldtop

RaymondLin said:

crunchman said:

Jez6345789 said:

I do think ifApple can  keep all its ducks lined up over the next few years it could seriously change the map. AMD are still lumbered with Windows and endless legacy overhead even if they run it on ARM. Apples Love of tight hardware software integration has struggled to look very good performance wise  in  a world where they were locked into intel.

At the same time the open platforms, where any manufacturer can jump on board, like Windows and Android mean much cheaper hardware.  Android has about 75% of the phone market worldwide.  Unless Apple does bring out much cheaper devices, then that won't change.

I have an Android phone that cost me about £150.  It's fine.  It does everything I need it to.  I'd like a slightly nicer camera, but the one it has is reasonable.  It's got more pixels than you can fit on a 4k screen.  The next £150 phone I buy will be better still.

The average new Windows PC will be fine for most users who just want to watch YouTube, send emails, and do a bit of word processing.  For those uses, a Chromebook is also fine.  The cheapest MacBook Air is £999.  Most people are just going to spend less than half that on whatever Currys PC World has in stock, or whatever is cheapest on Amazon.

Unless Apple comes out with some devices at a lower price point, then it will always be in a niche market.  Their margins will be far higher than the average Android/Windows manufacturer, and they might make more profit, but Android and Windows are likely to be the biggest market for the foreseeable future.

That's the iPad Mini.  Something for consumption, your YouTube, send emails, and do a bit of word processing. 

Well, sort of. But the iPad Mini 5 (A12) is a little monster. It'll run Cubasis projects just fine, and is plenty fast enough for image editing (Affinity Photo and Dark Room) on the go.

crunchman

goldtop said:

RaymondLin said:

crunchman said:

Jez6345789 said:

I do think ifApple can  keep all its ducks lined up over the next few years it could seriously change the map. AMD are still lumbered with Windows and endless legacy overhead even if they run it on ARM. Apples Love of tight hardware software integration has struggled to look very good performance wise  in  a world where they were locked into intel.

At the same time the open platforms, where any manufacturer can jump on board, like Windows and Android mean much cheaper hardware.  Android has about 75% of the phone market worldwide.  Unless Apple does bring out much cheaper devices, then that won't change.

I have an Android phone that cost me about £150.  It's fine.  It does everything I need it to.  I'd like a slightly nicer camera, but the one it has is reasonable.  It's got more pixels than you can fit on a 4k screen.  The next £150 phone I buy will be better still.

The average new Windows PC will be fine for most users who just want to watch YouTube, send emails, and do a bit of word processing.  For those uses, a Chromebook is also fine.  The cheapest MacBook Air is £999.  Most people are just going to spend less than half that on whatever Currys PC World has in stock, or whatever is cheapest on Amazon.

Unless Apple comes out with some devices at a lower price point, then it will always be in a niche market.  Their margins will be far higher than the average Android/Windows manufacturer, and they might make more profit, but Android and Windows are likely to be the biggest market for the foreseeable future.

That's the iPad Mini.  Something for consumption, your YouTube, send emails, and do a bit of word processing. 

Well, sort of. But the iPad Mini 5 (A12) is a little monster. It'll run Cubasis projects just fine, and is plenty fast enough for image editing (Affinity Photo and Dark Room) on the go.

If I'm running a DAW or video editing software, I want my nice 27" monitor.  If I had a bigger desk I'd run a 32" monitor, or dual monitors.  I definitely want a proper computer of some kind, but that is a niche market.  Most people aren't doing that.

goldtop

crunchman said:

goldtop said:

Well, sort of. But the iPad Mini 5 (A12) is a little monster. It'll run Cubasis projects just fine, and is plenty fast enough for image editing (Affinity Photo and Dark Room) on the go.

If I'm running a DAW or video editing software, I want my nice 27" monitor.  If I had a bigger desk I'd run a 32" monitor, or dual monitors.  I definitely want a proper computer of some kind, but that is a niche market.  Most people aren't doing that.

I know - thousands of us have been persuaded to buy pro-gear to get pro-quality workflow.

"Never mind the song, listen to that sample rate!"

WiresDreamDisasters

goldtop said:

crunchman said:

goldtop said:

Well, sort of. But the iPad Mini 5 (A12) is a little monster. It'll run Cubasis projects just fine, and is plenty fast enough for image editing (Affinity Photo and Dark Room) on the go.

If I'm running a DAW or video editing software, I want my nice 27" monitor.  If I had a bigger desk I'd run a 32" monitor, or dual monitors.  I definitely want a proper computer of some kind, but that is a niche market.  Most people aren't doing that.

I know - thousands of us have been persuaded to buy pro-gear to get pro-quality workflow.

"Never mind the song, listen to that sample rate!"

Are you trying to suggest you can make pro videos, pro audio, and pro content on an iPad? Coz you can't. They simply don't provide the detail, the control, nor the feature set that us professionals require. It isn't even about desire. It's what we need to do our jobs.

Just taking music creation as an example - I can tell you from industry knowledge, the number of people using iPads and other tablet devices to make music on is miniscule. And those that do tend to use them for notation, lyrics, and ideation. They don't use them for the final product.

crunchman

Even at an amateur music making level, it's a lot easier to slice up the waveform and fix my timing on a big monitor screen. 

It's also handy having a decent size screen for logging into work for my day job remotely.  I just wish I had the space for a dual monitor set up.

monquixote

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Are you trying to suggest you can make pro videos, pro audio, and pro content on an iPad? Coz you can't. They simply don't provide the detail, the control, nor the feature set that us professionals require. It isn't even about desire. It's what we need to do our jobs.

Just taking music creation as an example - I can tell you from industry knowledge, the number of people using iPads and other tablet devices to make music on is miniscule. And those that do tend to use them for notation, lyrics, and ideation. They don't use them for the final product.

My experience is that loads of people use iPads in the music industry. It seemed to almost be a standard requirement to have one.

This was for song charts and remotely controlling mixers etc. I don't think I've ever seen anyone using one as a DAW.

WiresDreamDisasters

monquixote said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Are you trying to suggest you can make pro videos, pro audio, and pro content on an iPad? Coz you can't. They simply don't provide the detail, the control, nor the feature set that us professionals require. It isn't even about desire. It's what we need to do our jobs.

Just taking music creation as an example - I can tell you from industry knowledge, the number of people using iPads and other tablet devices to make music on is miniscule. And those that do tend to use them for notation, lyrics, and ideation. They don't use them for the final product.

My experience is that loads of people use iPads in the music industry. It seemed to almost be a standard requirement to have one.

This was for song charts and remotely controlling mixers etc. I don't think I've ever seen anyone using one as a DAW.

Yes the people who use them use them for auxillary tasks. But the amount of people across the industry who do is reasonably small actually. We looked into porting some of our plugins to the iPad but it was not commercially viable because of the miniscule market. It would've taken us 3-6 months to port a synth, and projections of recouping the costs were measured in years.

We sold some software through the Steam store when their dreams of having an AppStore competitor were still a thing. Miniscule sales there too. The overlap between gamers and audio content creators and musicians is extremely thin.

Selling to musicians is a tricky business. Because their needs are quite particular, but they're also quite a niche market and the kinds of methods that work for selling to them are pretty well established by now, and methods outside of what we know don't tend to work very well. They dislike being treated like focus groups, but they also dislike having to jump through complex hoops to get product. I'm not a sales expert, but the previous company had this huge ambition to "democratize music" ... well.... £60million in the hole, and it's evident that it doesn't work.

Bottom line - the Apple poseur consumerist market isn't the same as the music/audio/video/content development crowd, even though Youtube influences like to try to convince us that they are all the same. They're not.

goldtop

WiresDreamDisasters said:

goldtop said:

crunchman said:

goldtop said:

Well, sort of. But the iPad Mini 5 (A12) is a little monster. It'll run Cubasis projects just fine, and is plenty fast enough for image editing (Affinity Photo and Dark Room) on the go.

If I'm running a DAW or video editing software, I want my nice 27" monitor.  If I had a bigger desk I'd run a 32" monitor, or dual monitors.  I definitely want a proper computer of some kind, but that is a niche market.  Most people aren't doing that.

I know - thousands of us have been persuaded to buy pro-gear to get pro-quality workflow.

"Never mind the song, listen to that sample rate!"

Are you trying to suggest you can make pro videos, pro audio, and pro content on an iPad? Coz you can't. They simply don't provide the detail, the control, nor the feature set that us professionals require. It isn't even about desire. It's what we need to do our jobs.

Just taking music creation as an example - I can tell you from industry knowledge, the number of people using iPads and other tablet devices to make music on is miniscule. And those that do tend to use them for notation, lyrics, and ideation. They don't use them for the final product.

No. I am suggesting that a huge number of hobbyists have been encouraged to believe that they need pro-quality gear + big DAW workflow for home recording. And that a modern iPad (Mini 5 or Air 4 level of processing) is capable of running their projects.

stratology

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Are you trying to suggest you can make pro videos, pro audio, and pro content on an iPad? 

Here are some of the movies that Steven Soderbergh shot on an iPhone.

And, regardless of iPads' processing power that matches and exceeds some 'professional' laptops - it's not uncommon for professionals to use things like the Slate Raven, which uses a touch screen experience inferior to iOS, because the DAWs used with the Raven were never designed for touch in the first place.

The distinction of 'iPad > amateur' vs. 'desktop PC with big monitor > professional' is based on outdated thinking, IMHO. It's common for professionals to use one device for their professional work at home, and either the same device or different devices (laptop, smartphone, tablets) for professional work on the go. 

The design objective of iPads (for pro use, like the iPad Pro) was never to be the singular professional device that makes all others obsolete, but to be an addition to other devices as part of a professional workflow. And to integrate seamlessly, via things like Handoff and Sidecar.

crunchman

goldtop said:

No. I am suggesting that a huge number of hobbyists have been encouraged to believe that they need pro-quality gear + big DAW workflow for home recording. And that a modern iPad (Mini 5 or Air 4 level of processing) is capable of running their projects.

The iPad will have the processing power, but it won't have the screen real estate.  If I was only using it for audio, I would still be using my old PC (4th gen i5) which was fine for my audio needs.  That would run 8 tracks with EQ, pitch correction, compressor, reverb as required.  Any half decent PC from the last 8 or 10 years would probably cope with that.  It's the screen that is the big problem.  By the time you have the main window with the tracks, the mixer, the transport controls, plugin windows etc. you are going to struggle to work on a small screen.

Also, if you do need to fix the timing on something, it's a lot more accurate to select the split point with a mouse than with a finger on a tablet.

I've bought a better machine because I needed it for video editing.  Again, the screen size makes a big difference with that.  With all the different things you need open, it's much easier editing the video on a 27" screen.  I wouldn't really want to do it on a laptop, let alone a tablet.

Here is a screenshot of DaVinci Resolve:

There is a lot going on there.

WiresDreamDisasters

stratology said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Are you trying to suggest you can make pro videos, pro audio, and pro content on an iPad? 

Here are some of the movies that Steven Soderbergh shot on an iPhone.

And, regardless of iPads' processing power that matches and exceeds some 'professional' laptops - it's not uncommon for professionals to use things like the Slate Raven, which uses a touch screen experience inferior to iOS, because the DAWs used with the Raven were never designed for touch in the first place.

The distinction of 'iPad > amateur' vs. 'desktop PC with big monitor > professional' is based on outdated thinking, IMHO. It's common for professionals to use one device for their professional work at home, and either the same device or different devices (laptop, smartphone, tablets) for professional work on the go. 

The design objective of iPads (for pro use, like the iPad Pro) was never to be the singular professional device that makes all others obsolete, but to be an addition to other devices as part of a professional workflow. And to integrate seamlessly, via things like Handoff and Sidecar.

There are lots and lots of uses for things like iPads and iPhones. Making professional media isn't one of them. There are plenty of puff pieces and conceptual pieces, but by and large, no-one is actually doing this. And if you actually look at the equipment he's using in the photos, you'll see there are tons of auxillary peripherals that are all helping that iPhone reach higher levels than the device is capable of alone. The audio itself - which is hugely important to the professional 'flair' of a movie - is not recorded by an iphone, clearly.

Theses devices can be useful. But their use is heavily limited by their workflow, much more so than their processing power. I agree they have good processing power.

But even so, very few people are using an iPad at the centre of, OR as a sidecar, for the professional workflow and development tasks.

It's not outdated thinking to have a set of workflows that you've been used to for decades, that do not translate well to a touchscreen or a device with minimal inputs and outputs.

And actually it's very uncommon for professionals to use things like the Slate Raven. Another device that didn't really hit the mark and failed to deliver on it's promises - it just didn't see wide adoption at all.