So, does this mean the death of touring for new/young/niche bands and artists?

RobertW

AntonHunter said:

Wow. Someone needs a hug. Not from me mind, I'm too busy pissing about pretending to have gone on tours that were in fact just a holiday.

Yes, I think someone does need a hug. 

These are trying times for all of us, some of us are working 12 plus hour days trying to keep our businesses afloat. 
So forgive me if my well of sympathy isn't overflowing at the thought that you might have to, Oh my God, buy travel insurance, or, holy shit, apply for a work permit. And if it turns out that there isn't actually a big enough audience for your music to create a big enough demand to make it financially viable to tour, then what? who am I supposed to blame for that? 

Or am I missing something?

camf

Good luck with your business. Does it involve being a ‘people person’? 

Philtre

nvm

danishbacon

RobertW said:

AntonHunter said:

Wow. Someone needs a hug. Not from me mind, I'm too busy pissing about pretending to have gone on tours that were in fact just a holiday.

Yes, I think someone does need a hug. 

These are trying times for all of us, some of us are working 12 plus hour days trying to keep our businesses afloat. 
So forgive me if my well of sympathy isn't overflowing at the thought that you might have to, Oh my God, buy travel insurance, or, holy shit, apply for a work permit. And if it turns out that there isn't actually a big enough audience for your music to create a big enough demand to make it financially viable to tour, then what? who am I supposed to blame for that? 

Or am I missing something?

I think you are. The music business has changed in the last 30 years. There simply isn’t enough money/audience at the lower tiers. Gone are the days a record label might throw vast sums in the artists direction. 

In fact, I did know well an artist heading a promising, Sony signed band in the last couple of years. They had a small amount of money made available, loans, they had an audience, they toured, they barely broke even, they kept things on a budget. Their fans bought the music, their audiences bought the tickets, the record label paid the producer. Still, the artist had to flip burgers to feed the kid and pay the rent. 

These are all things that have nothing to do with brexit, or you. 

Truth is, at one point artists could make a living, much like coal miners did. Might not have been much, but it was a living. 

Scraping something together to tour Europe is now off the list of opportunities if all this is true and either there will be funds coming from the corporates to cover (unlikely) or you’ll see a blossoming of a local scene again. Who knows. 

To simply say, make it business viable or lose it is a bit of a tone deaf approach to the arts, especially if you’ve got some records that you enjoy listening to. It’s not all about the bottom line and these barriers simply limit the scope of what can be done across borders in the arts. I don’t think anyone is looking for charity, they just want to be able to earn something fair for contributing to a public good that we all benefit from. People adapt, industries change and I appreciate the struggles of friends who chose to live in London to try to ‘make it’. I don’t chastise them though. I know that for some, that’s all they have. 

horse

WWAC

Kebabkid

I saw this and was gobsmacked and saddened by this.

Although it's not high on the list of issues musicians will face but I see the CITES thing is back in there. So, it will apply in this instance despite having been dropped?

AntonHunter

See, I thought I'd worked 12+ hour days in the past, but I realise now that some of these were actually just going on holiday. Which must have been why I was able to avoid laying into other people's jobs on the internets.

Hattigol

RobertW said:

AntonHunter said:

Wow. Someone needs a hug. Not from me mind, I'm too busy pissing about pretending to have gone on tours that were in fact just a holiday.

Yes, I think someone does need a hug. 

These are trying times for all of us, some of us are working 12 plus hour days trying to keep our businesses afloat. 
So forgive me if my well of sympathy isn't overflowing at the thought that you might have to, Oh my God, buy travel insurance, or, holy shit, apply for a work permit. And if it turns out that there isn't actually a big enough audience for your music to create a big enough demand to make it financially viable to tour, then what? who am I supposed to blame for that? 

Or am I missing something?

Yes, I think you are missing something. Empathy would be my guess but self-awareness and respect might be other candidates. 

You should perhaps check out Rule 1 too. It's very short and simple to understand. 

merlin

RobertW said:

These are trying times for all of us, some of us are working 12 plus hour days trying to keep our businesses afloat. 
So forgive me if my well of sympathy isn't overflowing at the thought that you might have to, Oh my God, buy travel insurance, or, holy shit, apply for a work permit. And if it turns out that there isn't actually a big enough audience for your music to create a big enough demand to make it financially viable to tour, then what? who am I supposed to blame for that? 

Or am I missing something?

"Some of us" lost ALL their work due to Covid and now won't be able to work in Europe, which formed a massive part of our holiday. The overall effect is not about the that we have to apply for work permits and buy travel/health insurance to go "on holiday"  but that there will be no fucking holiday. 

There is nothing romantic or glamorous about the kind of touring that I have done. No white kittens, no green M&Ms no panoramic hotel rooms overlooking the Danube filled with sweet innocent babes just dying to have sex with the clarinetist (me). No huge spreads in 5 star hotels and no hanging out with international stars, snorting coke and drinking all night. And despite no holiday behaviour, there was at least a 12 hour day, every day of tiring and often tedious work. Sometimes for months with an occasional day off in some shitty place in a shitty hotel on the outskirts of nowhere. 

No, it's a fucking job just like the 12 hours you're putting in every day. A job. You know, that elusive thing called work that I trained for since the age of 7, in school, college, hours of practise at home then in college and practise every day to maintain my skills. That kind of job. 

And you're not "supposed" to blame anyone for anything. You can choose to look for someone to blame if you wish. Good luck finding them, I hope they deserve it. 

camf

It’s all very crap, @Merlin. Hope things start to turn around you somehow. All the best. 

AntonHunter

Kebabkid said:

I saw this and was gobsmacked and saddened by this.

Although it's not high on the list of issues musicians will face but I see the CITES thing is back in there. So, it will apply in this instance despite having been dropped?

Hi @Kebabkid - the Musician's Union have linked to a government survey on CITES https://musiciansunion.org.uk/Home/News/2020/Nov/CITES-Survey-Does-your-Instrument-Contain-Endanger - there's some info on a link on that page too I think.

close2u

Here is a thread unroll with all 25 separate tweets just in case anyone only saw the travel insurance / passport ones at the top and thought 'Pah, whining buggers'.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1326554078256656389.html

close2u

Richard Murphy has also posted the entire thread in his Tax Research blog.
One respondent has picked up on some details and commented ...

[ quote ]

Just a note and rather minor in the scheme of the hassles they are going to have the part about filling in the SAD(C88) isn’t correct, to cut a long story short it’s the base document for the data required in (currently) CHIEF. There is no way anyone not trained could do it anyway.

I would also point out that yes the cost of the ATA carnet is accurate but that’s just for raising it, you will also need to provide security based on the value so considerable up front costs.

Oh and I would also point out that you wouldn’t need a separate carnet for each item. One can cover multiple items on the ‘general list’ starting at page 2 and I have dealt with some that have a hundred items or so.

Again not a big deal in the scheme of things but it should be noted some small inaccuracies in the tweets.

[ end quote ]

zedhex

I spent a lot of my early years as a musician travelling around Europe playing various gigs, the occasional residency in bars etc. I never made much money, but I certainly had a great time and it turned me into a much better performer. There is no substitute for playing live. 

I remember when I was living in the US that I was always impressed by the standard of live music even in grotty little bars in the middle of nowhere. There is simple reason for it: you can play 100 gigs in a row in the US and never cross your own path. We don't have that in this country - you'd be hard-pressed to play 30 dates in this country without playing at least one place twice. The only way we in the UK can build up that kind of performing experience is by travelling, and with Europe on our doorstep it was the only viable option we really had - particularly if you are starting out and don't have two pennies to rub together.

After leaving the EU, that opportunity is pretty much gone - which means that our ability to generate new talent and nurture it to the level where we can continue to punch above our weight internationally on musical terms is likely to diminish radically. 

Just one more example where the consequences of leaving the EU hadn't been properly thought out by our illustrious leaders.

I wonder how many performing musicians voted to leave? Are they regretting it now?

camf

I did wonder about that bit. Pre EU, a carnet covered a list of all your equipment so that makes more sense if it’s the case. I remember the concern that if anything was left behind or stolen, you’re whole carnet became compromised and it was a massive pain to get it certified again to move into a different territory or get home. The threat of just having all your equipment just impounded and held at the border was a real concern. Getting rid of all that was one of the initial joys of the EU’s freedom of movement. Ah well. It was grand while it lasted. 

ESBlonde

I'm now too old to consider continental touring unless it is in 5 star hotels and luxury coaches (so that's a no then). But I'd like to point out that American and British music has dominated the European continental scene for well over half a century, and is likely to continue to do so on the basis of customer demand. The laptop based MC will continue to be an easy option and they will continue to draw crowds and make money, but British rock bands too have a huge appeal over there. They may become more desirable if they are seen as 'exotic' compared to the local band in the town. In addition the 'British' bars on the Med will still want bands or Duos for the season.
British bands toured the continent from the 50s onwards and for sure the financial equation was no better back in the day than now. There are many local musicians in my area (East Anglia) that would pop over and do a 1-2 week tour of Germany to huge acclaim before ever we had seamless borders. They never made much money directly (just as they didn't here at home), but had loyal followings and sold a few pressings. Such is the way and I'm confident it will continue albeit slightly different.
In terms of Carnet etc. there used to a hundreds of small shipping/clearing offices around Felixstowe/Harwich/Ramsgate/Dover etc. that would sort your documents and present them to customs for a small fee, they also knew corresponding small companies on the other coast that could assist likewise from there for their 'clients'. This industry will sprout up fairly quickly and settle down within a few months because there is money to be made.
It wouldn't surprise me if some enterprising individuals set up backline type hire businesses (or expand existing businesses) to cater for the changes. That way your 'carry over' stuff would be guitar, pedals, cymbals etc. and the rest could be hired for the duration and left over there when you return. How many of us have loaned our backline to the headline band from France/Holland/Germany while they mini tour in the pubs and clubs over here? 
It's just different and a change (back). I didn't vote leave for the record, but I know shipping/customs from my day jobs and I know touring/gigging from my weekend warrior activities and commerce will find a way. It was always difficult financially to tour a new/unknown band and I don't see that overall situation has changed.

digitalscream

RobertW said:

AntonHunter said:

Wow. Someone needs a hug. Not from me mind, I'm too busy pissing about pretending to have gone on tours that were in fact just a holiday.

Yes, I think someone does need a hug. 

These are trying times for all of us, some of us are working 12 plus hour days trying to keep our businesses afloat. 
So forgive me if my well of sympathy isn't overflowing at the thought that you might have to, Oh my God, buy travel insurance, or, holy shit, apply for a work permit. And if it turns out that there isn't actually a big enough audience for your music to create a big enough demand to make it financially viable to tour, then what? who am I supposed to blame for that? 

Or am I missing something?

Yes, you're missing a fair bit.

- For a five-piece amateur band plus one roadie, an extra £600 for EU work visas isn't insignificant.
- Most amateur bands will use a European tour to build their audience, not to make money.
- To get a work visa, you need to already have your tour booked. You also need to pay for your flights, and have proof of accommodation before you apply for it, and there's a significant non-zero chance of being rejected and thus losing all the money you've paid out.
- Amateur bands will usually have a deal for somewhere to crash as part of each gig booking, which won't be sufficient as proof of accommodation (unlike hotel booking invoices, for example).
- Another requirement for a visa is proof of employment in the form of a contract, which most venues don't provide.
- ...and then there's the language proficiency requirement, which...yeah, we're British. That doesn't work.
- Oh, and carnets, as previously mentioned.

The world is a very different place from the 80s, when this was last an issue, and so the difficulties aren't the same either.

EDIT: Also worth noting that yes, these are trying times for all of us, but - as shit as it is at the moment - they are temporary for most. The issues for musicians caused by leaving the EU will be with us for many decades, so they might as well be considered a permanent problem. That bears discussion, so if the only reason you joined the thread was to demonstrate how little you care about the folks whose careers in the music industry will be harmed because of this, I'd venture to suggest that it's probably not the best reflection of how you see yourself.

camf

^^^^ Well stated @digitalscream

mike257

RobertW said:

merlin said:

Just a question and I'm not trolling. @RobertW, have you ever toured in Europe?

I'm not a musician by trade, that particular dream never came to fruition. I've also never had sex with Angelina Jolie, but I'm not here complaining about how Billy Bob Thornton doesn't get to have sex with her now either. 

Look if in the past you've bundled yourself into the back of a Transit van and toured Europe, congratulations, you've lived the dream. I'm terribly sorry that from now on you're going to have to treat things more professionally; prepare paperwork, calculate the financial viability, you know, treat it like a job and not a holiday. But if it turns out the actual demand for your music doesn't exceed the expense of the trip, then that's probably on you and not the Bureau De Change.

Wow. Hard to know where to start with unpicking this mess. 

I'm a tour manager, production manager and sound engineer. I make my living through touring with artists ranging from multiple-Grammy winners to emerging independent bands. I'm part of an industry full of skilled, dedicated professionals that contributes billions to the economy every year. 

The impact of Brexit on our industry is huge. There's more to the live music business than your projection of a bunch of lads on their jollies in a Transit van. Contrary to what you clearly believe we already "treat things professionally, prepare paperwork, calculate the viability and treat it like a job and not a holiday" because for roughly 600,000 people in the UK, it actually IS our job. 

The financial realities of touring at anything up to venues of a few thousand capacity is that budgets are always tight, especially so on smaller gigs. The adminstrative and financial burdens of securing work permits/visas for your touring party in every country you visit, plus managing tax liabilities in each individual country, plus carnet costs and bonds, plus extra travel days on the itinerary to account for the mess we'll have made of the border crossing in/out of the country holding up trucks is going to make touring in Europe vastly more expensive for established artists, and near-impossible for young emerging acts trying to build an audience. 

For every added cost on those tours, savings will have to be made elsewhere - crew numbers will be cut and production will be scaled back, meaning jobs and revenue lost in the UK. 

Our live production industry is world class and we have some incredible suppliers here in the UK that are world leaders in their specialised fields. Many international artists, particularly those from the US, will use UK based suppliers for sound, lighting, video, technical crew, staging, trucking and tour buses etc for their European engagements. These changes, and the adminstrative and financial impacts, mean our UK suppliers will become uncompetitive compared to our counterparts on the mainland, and business is already being lost for this exact reason, with European suppliers benefiting and UK companies losing out. More lost jobs, more lost revenue. 

So although, like you, I've never slept with Angelina Jolie, what I have done is worked incredibly hard to build a career in an industry that I love, achieved (moderate) success and have been able to provide for my family through doing so. Now my livelihood, and that of hundreds of thousands of my colleagues, peers and friends, is at risk. 

I'm already seeing the huge consequences of COVID and 12+ months of cancelled work on our industry with huge redundancies, closed venues, suppliers folding. The changes brought about by Brexit are just going to make it even harder for people who are already struggling. 

If your business is struggling, I'm sorry to hear that, and - unlike you - I extend my sympathy. However, like @merlin I'd love to be back at work doing 18 hour days, taking a bunch of trucks in to an empty arena and working with a team of incredibly skilled and passionate people to turn that in to a mind blowing show, then packing it all up and grabbing a few hours sleep in a tin can on wheels before we do it all again the next morning. 

Touring isn't a holiday, and the changes coming out way don't just mean filling in a few forms and paying an extra bill. It's ordinary working people doing a job they've trained to do, paying their bills and feeding their families. Try and have a little empathy. 

oktorockto

mike257 said:

RobertW said:

merlin said:

Just a question and I'm not trolling. @RobertW, have you ever toured in Europe?

I'm not a musician by trade, that particular dream never came to fruition. I've also never had sex with Angelina Jolie, but I'm not here complaining about how Billy Bob Thornton doesn't get to have sex with her now either. 

Look if in the past you've bundled yourself into the back of a Transit van and toured Europe, congratulations, you've lived the dream. I'm terribly sorry that from now on you're going to have to treat things more professionally; prepare paperwork, calculate the financial viability, you know, treat it like a job and not a holiday. But if it turns out the actual demand for your music doesn't exceed the expense of the trip, then that's probably on you and not the Bureau De Change.

Wow. Hard to know where to start with unpicking this mess. 

I'm a tour manager, production manager and sound engineer. I make my living through touring with artists ranging from multiple-Grammy winners to emerging independent bands. I'm part of an industry full of skilled, dedicated professionals that contributes billions to the economy every year. 

The impact of Brexit on our industry is huge. There's more to the live music business than your projection of a bunch of lads on their jollies in a Transit van. Contrary to what you clearly believe we already "treat things professionally, prepare paperwork, calculate the viability and treat it like a job and not a holiday" because for roughly 600,000 people in the UK, it actually IS our job. 

The financial realities of touring at anything up to venues of a few thousand capacity is that budgets are always tight, especially so on smaller gigs. The adminstrative and financial burdens of securing work permits/visas for your touring party in every country you visit, plus managing tax liabilities in each individual country, plus carnet costs and bonds, plus extra travel days on the itinerary to account for the mess we'll have made of the border crossing in/out of the country holding up trucks is going to make touring in Europe vastly more expensive for established artists, and near-impossible for young emerging acts trying to build an audience. 

For every added cost on those tours, savings will have to be made elsewhere - crew numbers will be cut and production will be scaled back, meaning jobs and revenue lost in the UK. 

Our live production industry is world class and we have some incredible suppliers here in the UK that are world leaders in their specialised fields. Many international artists, particularly those from the US, will use UK based suppliers for sound, lighting, video, technical crew, staging, trucking and tour buses etc for their European engagements. These changes, and the adminstrative and financial impacts, mean our UK suppliers will become uncompetitive compared to our counterparts on the mainland, and business is already being lost for this exact reason, with European suppliers benefiting and UK companies losing out. More lost jobs, more lost revenue. 

So although, like you, I've never slept with Angelina Jolie, what I have done is worked incredibly hard to build a career in an industry that I love, achieved (moderate) success and have been able to provide for my family through doing so. Now my livelihood, and that of hundreds of thousands of my colleagues, peers and friends, is at risk. 

I'm already seeing the huge consequences of COVID and 12+ months of cancelled work on our industry with huge redundancies, closed venues, suppliers folding. The changes brought about by Brexit are just going to make it even harder for people who are already struggling. 

If your business is struggling, I'm sorry to hear that, and - unlike you - I extend my sympathy. However, like @merlin I'd love to be back at work doing 18 hour days, taking a bunch of trucks in to an empty arena and working with a team of incredibly skilled and passionate people to turn that in to a mind blowing show, then packing it all up and grabbing a few hours sleep in a tin can on wheels before we do it all again the next morning. 

Touring isn't a holiday, and the changes coming out way don't just mean filling in a few forms and paying an extra bill. It's ordinary working people doing a job they've trained to do, paying their bills and feeding their families. Try and have a little empathy. 

I'd like to add to this. I too have worked as a tour manager and sound engineer, often combined. I have to say that it is one of the most tiring and stressful jobs I have done with the longest hours. I say that as someone who has digged fence post holes for 10 hours a day and other hard, physical construction work. The paperwork, emails and bureaucracy can be overwhelming. I have to say that the comments made by @RobertW suggest that their idea of what constitutes music, arts or performance are quite narrow. We all have our views on Brexit but honestly, this is turning onto a s***-show and it is clear that this government see no benefit in the arts. I myself voted to Remain but I was on the fence and probably ended up 60% Remain/40% Brexit. I can see the faults in Europe, especially with the single currency (actually rather convenient on a grass roots tourist/worker level but a bit more serious when it comes to sovereign budgets), but do believe we can work things out better together.