New fender amps

TINMAN82

ICBM said:

TINMAN82 said:

I didn’t suggest they are like for like spec wise. Yes the specs alone could swing it one way or the other irrespective of £250. But both are in the same “champ” low wattage Fender tube amp family. If I was simply looking for a plug and play version of that for home use then my comment stands. In my opinion at least.

If you want the features of the Vibro-Champ then the ‘57 will be of no interest even at the same price. In my opinion - and I have owned originals of both. Even with no reverb and an 8” speaker the Vibro-Champ was a totally different sounding amp.

Why would you spend £250 more for an amp that does far less, unless you specifically want the overdriven sound of the ‘57?

As I say, if it’s for plug and play tone for home use only then feature set and a smaller speaker might be less important. I think (but could be wrong) that the new vibro champ is Mexican made with a PCB design. The 57 champ is American made and handwired. For some, the more boutique handwired design will appeal and might justify the cash, irrespective of other functions. 

ICBM

TINMAN82 said:

As I say, if it’s for plug and play tone for home use only then feature set and a smaller speaker might be less important. I think (but could be wrong) that the new vibro champ is Mexican made with a PCB design. The 57 champ is American made and handwired. For some, the more boutique handwired design will appeal and might justify the cash, irrespective of other functions. 

Perhaps you’re right. There probably are people who would pay more for a completely different and much more limited amp than the one they actually want just because it’s hand wired by Mexicans in America rather than assembled by Mexicans in Mexico.



Although the whole point of the Vibro-Champ is its feature set for home use...

TINMAN82

ICBM said:

TINMAN82 said:

As I say, if it’s for plug and play tone for home use only then feature set and a smaller speaker might be less important. I think (but could be wrong) that the new vibro champ is Mexican made with a PCB design. The 57 champ is American made and handwired. For some, the more boutique handwired design will appeal and might justify the cash, irrespective of other functions. 

Perhaps you’re right. There probably are people who would pay more for a completely different and much more limited amp than the one they actually want just because it’s hand wired by Mexicans in America rather than assembled by Mexicans in Mexico.

Although the whole point of the Vibro-Champ is its feature set for home use...

?? A slightly convoluted perspective which IMO is disproven by the entire boutique amp industry..or even the mid to higher end production amp industry. If feature set and versatility were king we’d all be happy with Fender Mustangs and Line 6 Spiders.

Clearly, if the vibrochamp is “the one they actually want”, especially if the tone and/or feature set suits, that’s the one to buy. 

For some with no strong opinion or preconceptions on which has the better tone (eg me as I’ve never played either), the handwired option is appealing on paper. I’m not as fussed about country of origin but we’re all well aware that holds weight in the guitar industry too.

ICBM

TINMAN82 said:

For some with no strong opinion or preconceptions on which has the better tone (eg me as I’ve never played either), the handwired option is appealing on paper. I’m not as fussed about country of origin but we’re all well aware that holds weight in the guitar industry too.

Well, if you had then I think you would realise why I find the idea that you would make the choice based on construction so ridiculous .

Just because they are both "Fender Champs" doesn't mean they are remotely similar, and so the difference in construction is irrelevant if you want one, or the other - if you want the 50s blues/rock'n'roll overdriven tone of the '57 then you wouldn't buy the Vibro-Champ just because it's cheaper either!

TINMAN82

ICBM said:

TINMAN82 said:

For some with no strong opinion or preconceptions on which has the better tone (eg me as I’ve never played either), the handwired option is appealing on paper. I’m not as fussed about country of origin but we’re all well aware that holds weight in the guitar industry too.

Well, if you had then I think you would realise why I find the idea that you would make the choice based on construction so ridiculous .

Just because they are both "Fender Champs" doesn't mean they are remotely similar, and so the difference in construction is irrelevant if you want one, or the other - if you want the 50s blues/rock'n'roll overdriven tone of the '57 then you wouldn't buy the Vibro-Champ just because it's cheaper either!

Noone has played the new vibrochamp yet so we’re all giving slightly hypothetical opinions.

Having read many of you’re posts (admittedly still a tiny fraction) I respect you’re expertise in amp construction and how they work. But you can be a bit contrary sometimes! I appreciate you’re utilitarian views and understand you’d probably prefer playing you’re Aria through a Peavey amp anyway, which is fine. 

But...market forces within the guitar industry are what they are. Handwiring/ construction is a factor that consumers will consider (independently) when making their choice. That’s why Fender uses it in their marketing. You fundamentally disagree with this and that’s cool.

Presently, the only way of trying both side to side is ordering both online with the intention of sending one back. If a consumer is simply looking for nice Fender tube tone at home they may well be equally happy with either of these amps. I’m also recalling you’re previous opinions on guitars often sounding indistinguishable as I type that. In this case, having the handwired amp may appeal. It would to me.

FWIW I returned a 64 handwired Deluxe Reverb as I wasn’t keen on the tone. I’ve kept a pre-owned 65 DRRI at a third of the price as I prefer it. But all else being completely equal I’d prefer my 65 to be handwired!

ICBM

No... I'm not disagreeing that the construction is a part of the marketing/buying process. But we aren't comparing like with like at all.

The whole point of the Vibro-Champ is its feature set - it's clearly intended to give the tone, reverb and tremolo of a larger BF/SF Fender amp in a home-friendly format. If that's what you want, then the '57 Champ is *not* what you want - it has no reverb or tremolo, and a very different tone - it's also probably noticeably louder, even though the VC has a 10" speaker. If you were to base your decision on either price or construction rather than features or tone then you'd buy the wrong amp - so they're not comparable or competing with each other... it's a bit pointless to say that for another £250 you could have a completely different amp.

I can also understand why they would choose digital reverb for the VC - even ignoring cost, which is probably the bigger reason - because noise from switch-mode power supplies (which modern houses are full of) being picked up by the tank in spring reverbs is now a common issue for home players, so digital is actually *better*. The only oddity is that they've chosen a hall rather than spring emulation.

No, I haven't played the new Vibro-Champ. But I have owned two originals - an early-70s one and an '81 'return to Blackface' - and a '59 5F1 tweed Champ. They all had a nice clean sound at home volume... and that is as far as they were similar. The 5F1 was extremely loud, raspy and 'trumpety' when turned up - actually giggable unmic'ed in a small bar - the Vibro-Champs were far more polite, deeper and clearer at low volume, but went very farty when pushed hard (the '81 a bit less so) - and that's even without reverb and with an 8" speaker.

To be honest, if buyers are really basing their choice of amps on the sort of criteria you think they are, it's no wonder there is so much turnover in the boutique amp market .

TINMAN82

ICBM said:

No... I'm not disagreeing that the construction is a part of the marketing/buying process. But we aren't comparing like with like at all.

The whole point of the Vibro-Champ is its feature set - it's clearly intended to give the tone, reverb and tremolo of a larger BF/SF Fender amp in a home-friendly format. If that's what you want, then the '57 Champ is *not* what you want - it has no reverb or tremolo, and a very different tone - it's also probably noticeably louder, even though the VC has a 10" speaker. If you were to base your decision on either price or construction rather than features or tone then you'd buy the wrong amp - so they're not comparable or competing with each other... it's a bit pointless to say that for another £250 you could have a completely different amp.

I can also understand why they would choose digital reverb for the VC - even ignoring cost, which is probably the bigger reason - because noise from switch-mode power supplies (which modern houses are full of) being picked up by the tank in spring reverbs is now a common issue for home players, so digital is actually *better*. The only oddity is that they've chosen a hall rather than spring emulation.

No, I haven't played the new Vibro-Champ. But I have owned two originals - an early-70s one and an '81 'return to Blackface' - and a '59 5F1 tweed Champ. They all had a nice clean sound at home volume... and that is as far as they were similar. The 5F1 was extremely loud, raspy and 'trumpety' when turned up - actually giggable unmic'ed in a small bar - the Vibro-Champs were far more polite, deeper and clearer at low volume, but went very farty when pushed hard (the '81 a bit less so) - and that's even without reverb and with an 8" speaker.

To be honest, if buyers are really basing their choice of amps on the sort of criteria you think they are, it's no wonder there is so much turnover in the boutique amp market .

You’ve explained in great detail why these amps arn’t identical..by design, by feature set or in the way they sound. I’ve never argued with this.

If I was in the market for a 5watt Fender tube amp to play at low/ home volumes (assuming I like the way they both sound and I’m not fussed about digital reverb) I’d be tempted to pay £250 more for the US made handwired option. 

There’s not necessarily a “wrong” amp choice in this situation. £800 for the vibrochamp isn’t cheap. If the vibrochamp was £500 I’d be more inclined to go in that direction. 

So yes, I’m disagreeing with you’re assertion that two 5 watt Fender tube amps (with only £250 price difference) are not competing with each other within the marketplace. 

ICBM

I think you should try actually playing the two amps in question if you think there's a "5W Fender valve amp tone" or that they're in any sensible way comparable.

thermionic

Get a room, you two

BintyTwanger77

ICBM said:

The whole point of the Vibro-Champ is its feature set - it's clearly intended to give the tone, reverb and tremolo of a larger BF/SF Fender amp in a home-friendly format. 

As a former 65 DRRI owner who doesn't want to piss off his neighbours, this is exactly why the VC looks an attractive buy for me, plus the 10" speaker I'm guessing would give a fuller tone/more rounded bass frequencies. Not sure how much clean headroom it would have, though, as I mostly play clean at home.

TINMAN82

ICBM said:

I think you should try actually playing the two amps in question if you think there's a "5W Fender valve amp tone" or that they're in any sensible way comparable.

You’re not comprehending what I’ve said so final post on the matter. I know they aren't identical. If there’s a clear tone preference then that’s (usually) the one to go for. 

You can’t have 50,000 plus posts on a guitar forum and not appreciate the multi factorial nature of what motivates and informs gear purchases. 

I’m talking here about small wattage and low volumes for home noodling within the context of a home based, amateur hobby. In this context many of us derive much of the tone from pedals anyway (I appreciate that according to the laws of physics there might be a better circuit choice for that too).

Shocker, I also prefer the aesthetics of the tweed, which might also creep into my decision making. As I said, at present within the confines of lockdown and buying online I find the handwired tweed option more appealing for an extra £250. 

Hootsmon

This place is GREAT! 

idiotwindow

TINMAN82 said:

As I say, if it’s for plug and play tone for home use only then feature set and a smaller speaker might be less important. I think (but could be wrong) that the new vibro champ is Mexican made with a PCB design. The 57 champ is American made and handwired. For some, the more boutique handwired design will appeal and might justify the cash, irrespective of other functions. 

The '57 is indeed hand wired but I'm not sure it is made in the USA. Strangely, it doesn't say anywhere on the amp (inside or out) where it is made (I've looked carefully). The website specs for the handwired tweed amps make a point of mentioning "assembled in the USA" for the Deluxe and the Twin but not for the Champ. It doesn't matter to me either way – it's a really nice amp (if a little dark).

Regarding the appeal of the '57 versus the new Vibro-Champ, I might not be representative but I'm thinking of buying the Vibro as an alternative to my '57 for those times when I want inbuilt tremolo, a larger speaker and a tone knob. I don't view them as being the same thing in a different cabinet (though admittedly I've not heard the Vibro yet – other than the sound clips released on Instagram).

TINMAN82

idiotwindow said:

TINMAN82 said:

As I say, if it’s for plug and play tone for home use only then feature set and a smaller speaker might be less important. I think (but could be wrong) that the new vibro champ is Mexican made with a PCB design. The 57 champ is American made and handwired. For some, the more boutique handwired design will appeal and might justify the cash, irrespective of other functions. 

The '57 is indeed hand wired but I'm not sure it is made in the USA. Strangely, it doesn't say anywhere on the amp (inside or out) where it is made (I've looked carefully). The website specs for the handwired tweed amps make a point of mentioning "assembled in the USA" for the Deluxe and the Twin but not for the Champ. It doesn't matter to me either way – it's a really nice amp (if a little dark).

Regarding the appeal of the '57 versus the new Vibro-Champ, I might not be representative but I'm thinking of buying the Vibro as an alternative to my '57 for those times when I want inbuilt tremolo, a larger speaker and a tone knob. I don't view them as being the same thing in a different cabinet (though admittedly I've not heard the Vibro yet – other than the sound clips released on Instagram).

Handwired in Mexico wouldn’t put me off either. Would be cool to have both, although I might consider a PRRI instead of the vibrochamp  (if I already had a champ). The 57 champ has always interested me but in reality it would likely be a novelty/ bit of fun as I can attenuate my DRRI to home levels.

munckee

I’ve had a Princeton (68) and a 5f1 champ and now have a silver face champ. The 5f1 was great to play with humbuckers straight into it for a bluesy drive at lowish volumes. The silver face champ is lovely clean with anything and takes pedals well. 

Then Princeton was too bassy for me but sounded nice clean and good with pedals. Not as nice sounding as the sfchamp. 

SimonC

dindude said:

To be fair, the Champ sounds pretty bloomin good here I think. Scroll for multiple short clips.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ9vt1aMS2j/

That does indeed sound great.

However he’s also using a Dude overdrive in those clips, so be prepared to add on an extra £200 to sound like that.

As with all amp demos, I’d much prefer to hear it plugged straight in.

BintyTwanger77

SimonC said:

dindude said:

To be fair, the Champ sounds pretty bloomin good here I think. Scroll for multiple short clips.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ9vt1aMS2j/

That does indeed sound great.

However he’s also using a Dude overdrive in those clips, so be prepared to add on an extra £200 to sound like that.

As with all amp demos, I’d much prefer to hear it plugged straight in.

Does sound great, though, definitely considering one of these. Looks like the perfect valve amp for home use.

SPECTRUM001

SimonC said:

As with all amp demos, I’d much prefer to hear it plugged straight in.

Yeah I would have liked that too. I guess it might indicate that for a lot of folk, they will often be using pedals vs being plugged straight in.

Unless these turn out to be a turkeys, and even with the European price, I think they will fly. I wonder if the footswitch will be included in the package ?

MattW

SPECTRUM001
Unless these turn out to be a turkeys, and even with the European price, I think they will fly. I wonder if the footswitch will be included in the package ?

According to Fender site it’s included with the Pro Reverb but not the Champ.

SPECTRUM001

MattW said:

SPECTRUM001
Unless these turn out to be a turkeys, and even with the European price, I think they will fly. I wonder if the footswitch will be included in the package ?

According to Fender site it’s included with the Pro Reverb but not the Champ.

ha - of course !!