Preamp tubes do make a difference - now with audio clips!

ThePrettyDamned

Cirrus said:

Just for some perspective on the null tests and how much difference there is... if I duplicate two identical tracks, put the same flat digital eq on both of them, and phase invert one, I get perfect silence. If I then start adjusting the eq bands on one of them, two broad 4dB boosts at 120hz and 4k nets me -17dB peaks on my master bus. That's a massive tonal difference.

If I do something more subtle but still an audible difference, like 1db boosts, the null peak is around -40.

Those differences are easily enough to hear and enough to matter. And personally, I don't believe you can wave away differences by saying it's smaller than an adjustment of the mic position or turn of an EQ knob would make. It's hard enough getting a great recorded sound without several subtle stages of tired components, and if you're having to fight that with your settings and mic placement, you're tying your hands unnecessarily. Better have more ways of sounding good, surely?

You might as well say that the difference in sound between a good and bad acoustic is less than the difference you could get by differing mic placement. This is also true, but hopefully reveals how flimsily that attitude is.

You're probably right, I'm not a recording engineer, but I was amazed at how a minute mic adjustment changed the sound quite drastically - and this was with a cheap mic hanging over the amp. In a more serious setting, I can't imagine valves being significant enough comps red to amp eq, mic placement, post-processing etc. 

But I'm not a recording engineer - I'd just be really sad if I went to a studio to record and was told my valves were not good enough! I should probably get some new valves... 

Cirrus

ThePrettyDamned said:

You're probably right, I'm not a recording engineer, but I was amazed at how a minute mic adjustment changed the sound quite drastically - and this was with a cheap mic hanging over the amp. In a more serious setting, I can't imagine valves being significant enough comps red to amp eq, mic placement, post-processing etc. 

But I'm not a recording engineer - I'd just be really sad if I went to a studio to record and was told my valves were not good enough! I should probably get some new valves... 

Sorry, I didn't mean it as an attack! And sometimes it really doesn't matter. Of the amps I've owned, it made most difference in an AC50cph, bizarrely enough - in comparison, while I did lots of tube rolling with my ac30s they had less difference, which isn't what I'd have expected given how simpler the ac30 is.

It's not something to worry about, but if you notice the difference, then it's worth it.

WiresDreamDisasters

The thing I noticed most in the room was the feel. Not something you can really hear. But I noticed a bit more squishyness with the JJ's, like there was more input gain and thus more compression throughout the amp stages. This is a super tight amp in the first place though.

WiresDreamDisasters

Also with recording, things are culminative. The tracks I posted are just one take. And I hear differences, and the null tests prove they are real. After you've quad-tracked a part and done a few solo overdubs, those differences compound.

Everything in the chain matters. Just parts of it matter more than others. I don't think tubes are the primary factor. But they are one factor.

To me the amp head and speaker cab are the biggest factors.

ThePrettyDamned

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Also with recording, things are culminative. The tracks I posted are just one take. And I hear differences, and the null tests prove they are real. After you've quad-tracked a part and done a few solo overdubs, those differences compound.

Everything in the chain matters. Just parts of it matter more than others. I don't think tubes are the primary factor. But they are one factor.

To me the amp head and speaker cab are the biggest factors.

How do you assess a recorded tone? That sounds like a stupid question, I know, but my cheap headphones sound quite different to my nice ones - so much so, my preferred tone was swapped! 

I wish I knew more about recording. Sounds stressful, though... 

WiresDreamDisasters

ThePrettyDamned said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Also with recording, things are culminative. The tracks I posted are just one take. And I hear differences, and the null tests prove they are real. After you've quad-tracked a part and done a few solo overdubs, those differences compound.

Everything in the chain matters. Just parts of it matter more than others. I don't think tubes are the primary factor. But they are one factor.

To me the amp head and speaker cab are the biggest factors.

How do you assess a recorded tone? That sounds like a stupid question, I know, but my cheap headphones sound quite different to my nice ones - so much so, my preferred tone was swapped! 

I wish I knew more about recording. Sounds stressful, though... 

Nah it's not stressful. It's fun!

Assessing a tone... you kinda need to just explore, and figure out what YOU like the sound of. My sort of tones wouldn't work for a brash indie rock or punk band. Their tones wouldn't work for a prog-band, probably.

But generally for me my recorded tones are slightly different to my live tones. Recorded tones a bit less gain, a bit more volume, and I use more mids in a recorded situation than I do live.