Giant Steps at 330 bpm

tanihhiavlt

carlos said:

As some idiot said elsewhere in this forum...

and the award of Miss Congeniality goes to ... 

wizbit81

 tanihhiavlt said:

carlos said:

As some idiot said elsewhere in this forum...

and the award of Miss Congeniality goes to ... 

Nah I'm with Carlos. It is very irritating when people who absolutely have no clue about serious players and serious music make frankly ridiculous statements, and there are some corkers in this thread. It's precisely the same people who would have said 'all the sound and all of the fury.....ultimately signifying nothing' about Hendrix because they were all busy going mad over Clapton's 5 notes because they could understand that. If we take Ben Eunson playing our instrument out of the equation here but keep Giant Steps as an example, with 'trane blowing over it, would it get the same reaction from the same people here? If so, you're slagging off a gamechanging jazz album which changed the face of Sax playing, with playing from the all time greatest master of the instrument over all new harmonic progressions. If it's just Ben and not the style/tune generating the comments then I think it's pretty obvious it's people being triggered by a player about 20,000 divisions above them, which is sad really. In cases where it's genuinely just not getting it but not actively saying it's sh1t, then no problem, those guys are fine.

tanihhiavlt

Trouble is when people define "having a clue" as agreeing with them... the argument gets a bit cyclical

Barney

He's a great player and that takes some doing at that tempo...at any tempo really .. other players I would rather listen to but just my personal choice 

GuyBoden

Technically for guitar, Allan Holdsworth's countdown is exceptional, recorded in October 1994,

nearly 27 years ago, astonishing really. The player in this post, Ben Eunson, will know this too, Holdsworth is still the pinnacle, Holdsworth paved the way that many try to follow.

wizbit81

tanihhiavlt said:

Trouble is when people define "having a clue" as agreeing with them... the argument gets a bit cyclical

True, but it's Dunning Kruger isn't it, opinions are coming from incomparable areas. You may be meaning that as a directed comment at me or you may not, either way the answer is the same. There is a vast, uncrossable gulf between someone like Ben in terms of his knowledge, ear, technical ability, language, time, phrasing etc and some of the people commenting. The thing is though, they know so little they can't actually recognise that. I remember teaching a guy who told me he'd been playing for 30 years and was a solid professional etc etc and couldn't even play in time, but he thought he was able to slag off all of jazz as being nonsense. Classic example is the comment about it being just playing scales really fast, or whoever said 'he may know an arpeggio or two' or the one about someone playing like that at jam night after just learning the instrument for a week. It's just utter nonsense comments that betray the level of the commentor. I like Barney's comment above as that's the sort of thing that's reasonable to say. Not rude, not talking rubbish, not his cup of tea but recognising what the guy can do. Fair play!

GuyBoden

wizbit81 said:

tanihhiavlt said:

Trouble is when people define "having a clue" as agreeing with them... the argument gets a bit cyclical

True, but it's Dunning Kruger isn't it, opinions are coming from incomparable areas. You may be meaning that as a directed comment at me or you may not, either way the answer is the same. There is a vast, uncrossable gulf between someone like Ben in terms of his knowledge, ear, technical ability, language, time, phrasing etc and some of the people commenting. The thing is though, they know so little they can't actually recognise that. I remember teaching a guy who told me he'd been playing for 30 years and was a solid professional etc etc and couldn't even play in time, but he thought he was able to slag off all of jazz as being nonsense. Classic example is the comment about it being just playing scales really fast, or whoever said 'he may know an arpeggio or two' or the one about someone playing like that at jam night after just learning the instrument for a week. It's just utter nonsense comments that betray the level of the commentor. I like Barney's comment above as that's the sort of thing that's reasonable to say. Not rude, not talking rubbish, not his cup of tea but recognising what the guy can do. Fair play!

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a hypothetical cognitive bias stating that people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability. ... It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from people's inability to recognize their lack of ability."

The Dunning–Kruger effect sums up the majority of guitarists, including myself and probably you too.

tanihhiavlt

wizbit81 said:

tanihhiavlt said:

Trouble is when people define "having a clue" as agreeing with them... the argument gets a bit cyclical

True, but it's Dunning Kruger isn't it, opinions are coming from incomparable areas. You may be meaning that as a directed comment at me or you may not, 

confirmation bias, similar to Dunning Kruger effect - just doesn't require the person holding a different point of view to be intellectually inferior. 

The advantage is we can apply it to ourselves without shame, we can maintain respect for another person's opinions.

That playing is not my cup of tea, and somehow, I am not an idiot according to most people's definitions. Noone comes here to be called an idiot.

Someone who can't hold an alternative idea in their mind for fear of losing their own opinion, isn't going to be able to negotiate or reason with other people - noone is wholly intractable,  but when it comes to values and heroes people don't always know their blind spots. Fan or unmoved observer.

LastMantra

Nice mop collection. 

wizbit81

Guy..... no I don't suffer from Dunning Kruger I know exactly what my huge number of gaping inadequacies are on the guitar. I know for instance that Ben Eunson is many, many divisions above me as a player and always will be. 
Tani, did you even read my post properly? Seems not. I am saying opinions about whether it's your cup of tea or not are fine, I even explicitly said that, and nowhere did I call you an idiot and please don't try to pretend I did in order to take the high ground. I'm saying that critical statements which are patently and provably nonsense passed off as opinions annoy me. 
If I say Allan Holdsworth is shit it's not an opinion, it's a definitive statement about someone's ability that's complete and patent rubbish, and empirically provably so. If I say someone who has been playing a week sounds just like Ben Eunson, again, it's not an opinion, it's not factual rubbish. Beyond laughable in fact. There's not two sides to this, there's no defensible position to take. 

wizbit81

Guy what was your point about Holdsworth btw? Just a random comment? Totally agree btw he was playing a different sport to nearly every other guitarist in history.

tanihhiavlt

wizbit81 said:

Tani, did you even read my post properly? Seems not.... nowhere did I call you an idiot and please don't try to pretend I did in order to take the high ground. 

Oh gosh that is perplexing, perhaps I was referring to the person who did call people an idiot... is such a thing possible?

lysander

Threads with technical players should all come with a Boomer trigger warning. 

Ben is incredible. I prefer his fusion stuff but his jazz chops are insane.

wizbit81

tanihhiavlt said:

wizbit81 said:

Tani, did you even read my post properly? Seems not.... nowhere did I call you an idiot and please don't try to pretend I did in order to take the high ground. 

Oh gosh that is perplexing, perhaps I was referring to the person who did call people an idiot... is such a thing possible?

Classic... slow clap for the passive aggressive response. You were quoting me and addressing me directly in your reply, if you were then tangentially referring to someone else in the next sentence rather than me who you were addressing it would be useful to actually say that. 
If you did say that Ben's playing just sounds like scales played really fast, which if I'm right (could be wrong!) is the thing you're complaining about being called an idiot for... then you're not an idiot, you just don't know what you're talking about. Definitely a difference for sure. That's not an insult either, it's just an obvious fact if you did, because that's not remotely what he's doing, and it categorically sounds nothing like that.

Lysander.... I've seen a few of his vids but only checked out his album tonight. Loads of cool influences on there, deffo Holdsworth! Some really nice blues and pentatonic stuff mixed in with the post bop vocab as well which was surprising. I also like the variety on the album, he's not a one trick pony at all. 

tanihhiavlt

Yeah, you accuse me of something I didn't do and get self-righteous 
Lysander assumes anyone who doesn't rate this guy is a boomer 
Carlos calls people an idiot for not being wowed by some music he really rates.

That's about the size of it, collectively people expressing their indifference to the player  but enjoyment of the tune have been fan-splained.. 

So have the last word, it seems pretty pointless trying to express an alternative opinion around you

west

Here we are again on the " un-merry-go-round ... "

lysander

The boomer thing is a tongue in cheek reference to the army of armchair guitarists that comment on every popular YouTube video that features a player that can play a bit fast that there’s no ‘feel’ etc. They often start talking about Santana and Gilmour and thus get referred to as boomers - it’s just a cliched response to the cliche. 

Not liking the music is totally fine - I don’t particularly enjoy the posted video either - but when it comes with a value judgment such as ‘it’s noise’, ‘beginners can do this’ etc then it starts reflecting poorly on the poster.

xscaramanga

Jimbro66 said:

I can certainly appreciate the incredible dexterity and technical ability of players like this but the relentless barrage of notes sounds to me more akin to an endlessly nagging woman than anything of musical appeal. Sorry.

Well the important thing is you managed to get in an irrelevant spot of casual sexism while sharing your opinion.

Jimbro66

jonnyscaramanga said:

Jimbro66 said:

I can certainly appreciate the incredible dexterity and technical ability of players like this but the relentless barrage of notes sounds to me more akin to an endlessly nagging woman than anything of musical appeal. Sorry.

Well the important thing is you managed to get in an irrelevant spot of casual sexism while sharing your opinion.

Really??  Not another taking the moral high ground surely? It gets tedious....

viz

I love this guy’s playing and think it’s very musical - within a certain definition of musical maybe - but if others don’t like it, that’s totally as valid. I mean, it’s just a fact. Some people like it, some people don’t. I don’t think anyone would question his mastery and caftsmanship, but many would question his artistry. I personally think it’s awesome art.