Acoustic advice/education - good all rounder.

Haych

I must admit that I know quite a lot less about acoustic guitars than I do electric.

For some time now I've been toying with the idea of parting with most of my electrics and buying a half decent acoustic - something I can just pick up, play and enjoy without needing to thing about amps, tone, effects or anything else.

For that reason, I'd be wanting something that's a good all rounder; something that can handle some heavy strumming but something that still responds well to fingerstyle playing.

This is where my lack of knowledge trips me up.  All I know is my last acoustic was a dreadnought which did the strumming and flat picking  stuff very well but wasn't great at responding to finer inputs of finger picking.

Is there a shape/type/manufacturer even of acoustic steel string guitar that lends itself to pretty much everything?

Ta much in advancement.

Gandalph

Martin 000-18 would make for a very respectable all rounder.

ICBM

Martin OM, if you don't mind a wider neck.

Gibson J-45 if you do...

Neither of them do *really* heavy strumming well, but both will handle a bit more thumping than they're normally associated with. Any more than that and you're probably getting into Dreadnoughts and Jumbos - although in my opinion they're similarly not as bad for fingerpicking as often thought, especially anything with lighter/scalloped bracing, eg a Martin HD-28.

Haych

ICBM said:

Martin OM, if you don't mind a wider neck.

When you say a wider neck, how wide are we talking exactly?

ICBM

Haych said:

When you say a wider neck, how wide are we talking exactly?

1-3/4" is standard for them. I think some of the older models (90s, rather than 40s!) might have been narrower. I had a mid-90s OM-21 which was that wide though... which is why I don't own it now.

000s have narrower necks usually, but a shorter scale and don't seem quite as suitable for strumming, to me.

Andy79

ICBM said:

Martin OM, if you don't mind a wider neck.

Gibson J-45 if you do...

Neither of them do *really* heavy strumming well, but both will handle a bit more thumping than they're normally associated with. Any more than that and you're probably getting into Dreadnoughts and Jumbos - although in my opinion they're similarly not as bad for fingerpicking as often thought, especially anything with lighter/scalloped bracing, eg a Martin HD-28.

J45 not for heavy strumming? can’t think of anything better really 
And they fingerstyle exceptionally well especially if you’re a bit heavy handed on medium strings 
A great all rounder 

tomjax

I think the  Gibson J-45 is one of the best strumming guitars out there... maybe only bettered by a J-200.

Ricjo

The Martin 000-18 is 1 3/4” neck. And it’s a fabulous all rounder. I have one myself. 

ToneControl

worth mentioning that Dreadnoughts and Jumbos are often less popular with people who are smaller than average

Personally, I think the Jumbo size is the best all-rounder
1.75 inch wide nut is a good idea 

What do you want to spend?

Tannin

For all-round ability, you'd be wise to avoid the guitars which are famous for having a particular sound (for example Martin 000-18, D-18, D-28, HD-28; Gibson J45, J-200; practically any Taylor; various others) and go with something famous for just being a great guitar. Made-in-Japan Yamahas come immediately to mind, as do any of the better made-in-Europe brands, Lakewood in particular. In this part of the world I'd add most Matons but not most Cole Clarks (probably not where you are though, they are very expensive in the UK). The great majority of 3rd-world manufactured guitars (many of them wearing fake European or American brand names) are aimed at the cheap mass market and you are probably looking to go a bit better than that, but play the ones you like the look of and make your own judgement: I'm told that some are excellent by any standards and have no reason to doubt that.

And for a mix of strumming and fingerstyle, a dred or a jumbo will do at a pinch, but an OM / 808 / grand auditorium / whatever else they are calling that shape this week rules supreme.

TheBigDipper

I own an L-shape L'Arrivee (an L-01) which is a good all-rounder. Not as big as a dread or jumbo, doesn't start to "flub" when strummed hard yet responds nicely to dynamic finger picking. Also extremely well-made, nice neck and balanced tone. 

TheMadMick

Steve Page has a PRS T40E on here at £400.00 and he might well take an offer.

I have the cutaway version (A40E) and it needed some work to get the action as low as I like (it's my age you know) - the bridge lowered and a fret dress because the frets were high on the body. However, it has the most beautiful neck I've ever come across. I love it but wish the strings were a litle further apart - I've big fingers.

The tone took a while to develop and it seems to suit D'Addario PB - but I like a very mellow tone and play strings until they turn their toes up.

Also, the risk would be lower than the more expensive Martins and the like. I both strum and pick and mine responds well. It also sounds OK plugged in.

Haych

ToneControl said:

worth mentioning that Dreadnoughts and Jumbos are often less popular with people who are smaller than average

Personally, I think the Jumbo size is the best all-rounder
1.75 inch wide nut is a good idea 

What do you want to spend?

Not sure yet, it will depend on a lot of things and it won't be immediate whatever happens, probably going to be an autumn gift to myself.

Will also depend on whether I buy new or used.  New will give me more options, assuming one can still go into a guitar shop in the autumn and try out a load of different guitars.  Used might give me a better price but less choice.

tone1

I’m really interested in this thread as I’m in the same boat... I fancy an all rounder like a J45/ Atkin 43 or Eastman equivalent. So many options and choices too... but i fancy a Sunburst acoustic for a change.

stickyfiddle

I love my HD28. I play far more fingerpicking than anything other styles. I'm also looking at getting something smaller and mahogany-er to complement it, but the dread works very well as an all-rounder by itself. 

I certainly feel like it's a better compromise being a great strummer and good fingerpicker, compared with something like a 00 which is wonderful for fingerpicking but farts out when hit too hard

ToneControl

Haych said:

ToneControl said:

worth mentioning that Dreadnoughts and Jumbos are often less popular with people who are smaller than average

Personally, I think the Jumbo size is the best all-rounder
1.75 inch wide nut is a good idea 

What do you want to spend?

Not sure yet, it will depend on a lot of things and it won't be immediate whatever happens, probably going to be an autumn gift to myself.

Will also depend on whether I buy new or used.  New will give me more options, assuming one can still go into a guitar shop in the autumn and try out a load of different guitars.  Used might give me a better price but less choice.

OK. I would say buy used. I've done it by trying a few, then basically buying on ebay and seeing if I liked them, then selling on if I didn't. Probably easier to visit Frailer's - who AFAIK have the largest used selection. There are some shops with a few upmarket used ones in the south East

I'd say learn the price ranges, and decide what level you are going for

I concentrate on the upmarket "boutique" ones now: Lowden, Avalon, Fylde, Bourgeois, Goodall, etc
These are the equivalent of custom shop fenders, but I strongly believe that the extra cash spent makes a much bigger difference with acoustics. These brands typically have between 2 and 30 people working on making the guitars, some really are just 2 or 3 people. This is the old-fashioned way to build classicals and acoustics, a master luthier and their assistants.
Acoustics can be improved considerably by expert attention to the woods during the build, since wood differs a lot, and it's just the wood making the sounds here, not pickups.

These start at £3k new, £3k-£5k being the range that are sold most often
Buying used, £2k-£3k is the normal range, but you will find the occasional one for £1500

These overlap a lot in price with the big makers: Gibson, Martin, Taylor, Larrivee
I've found that you normally need to spend a lot more with these brands to get the quality of sound of the "boutique" makes.

I'm no expert in the lower-price brackets, but generally it will either be: made in the Far East, or more mass-production style manufacture in North America or Europe.

I've played good instruments from Furch, Stonebridge (same thing I think), Blueridge.
Hard to know how to judge these until you've tried the boutique level ones to provide a comparison. I was amazed when I first tried the boutique ones.

ICBM

Andy79 said:

J45 not for heavy strumming? can’t think of anything better really

A D-28, or any other Martin Dreadnought. Or a Hummingbird or a Dove, or a J-200...

The J-45 is middier-sounding and less boomy than any of them, which to me makes it a better all-rounder but less good as an outright strummer.

Ricjo said:

The Martin 000-18 is 1 3/4” neck.

They are now, but older ones are 1-11/16".

Edit: checked the dates, 1939-2014 apart from specials like the Woody Guthrie edition.

crunchman

A dreadnought with the right bracing is a good allrounder.

You want something with the pre war style bracing.  Martin call it "forward shifted".  They have changed back to that on their standard models in recent years, but the previous D28s were not very responsive at all.  They need thick strings and to be strummed hard if you want them to sound anything close to good.   A lot of budget dreadnoughts are/were copies of that and had the same characteristics.

As well as body size and shape, it's also worth thinking about what wood combinations you like.  The most common would be a spruce top, with either mahogany or rosewood back or sides.  The mahogany and rosewood do sound different.  If you aren't sure then it's definitely worth checking out a D18 and D28 comparison.  If you ignore the cosmetic trim, the only important difference between them is the wood used for the back and sides.

The other difference in wood that you will find is rosewood vs ebony for the fingerboard and bridge.  Martin normally use ebony, while something like a Gibson J45 uses rosewood.  There is definitely a feel difference, but I think there is a slight tonal difference as well.  Ebony seems to add a little high end sparkle to my ears.

Apart from wood combinations, scale length is the other variable.  Most Martins are 25.4", but the OM is 24.9".  The OM doesn't have quite so much high end snap and sounds a bit warmer.  I think most Gibsons are 24.75" like their electrics.

Wood and body shape/size on their own aren't everything.  The bracing design has a huge effect on the sound.  I used to have a Brook dreadnought with the same woods as my Martin dreadnought has, but it didn't sound the same.  That was a lovely guitar, but I didn't get on well with the shallow neck and flat fingerboard radius that Brook default to.  I do wonder about custom ordering one from them though with a deeper neck.

Apart from the big two US makers, there are other options available.  Taylor shift a lot of guitars.  Furch are very high quality, and won't set you back as much as the American guitars.  For a UK build option, Alister Atkin and Brook are very good.  If you want to spend a bit less, Faith guitars have a very good reputation.  That's not an exhaustive list.  There are other very good makers.

bugileman

Yamaha LL-11 in my opinion. Very versatile guitar that not only is a great strummer, but a great finger picker too. Bert Jansch was a big fan. 

Haych

bugileman said:

Yamaha LL-11 in my opinion. Very versatile guitar that not only is a great strummer, but a great finger picker too. Bert Jansch was a big fan. 

That's interesting, thanks.  Obviously a discontinued model, though and not that common on the used market.  Will keep an eye out though.

Haych

Follow-on question:

Cutaway or non-cutaway, is there that much difference in tone/volume if the guitar has a cutaway?

I can't see me needing one to be honest.