Acoustic advice/education - good all rounder.

ToneControl

Haych said:

Follow-on question:

Cutaway or non-cutaway, is there that much difference in tone/volume if the guitar has a cutaway?

I can't see me needing one to be honest.

Not in a well-made one.
Might also be fine for cheaper ones, I don't know

Cutaways cost extra to make though, so it will make a difference to what you get for the cash, especially if buying new

Haych

ToneControl said:

Cutaways cost extra to make though, so it will make a difference to what you get for the cash, especially if buying new

Ooooh, yeah, good point, hadn't thought about that.  Thanks dude.

stickyfiddle

Cutaway acoustics are for rock bands who still try and do the twiddly bits when they play songs acoustically. 

I’ve had 1 cutaway followed by 3 non-catuways. I don’t miss it at all

Haych

stickyfiddle said:

Cutaway acoustics are for rock bands who still try and do the twiddly bits when they play songs acoustically. 

I’ve had 1 cutaway followed by 3 non-catuways. I don’t miss it at all

Like I say, I doubt I'd ever need one.  That said, some manufacturers don't seem to give you much of a choice.  Many Taylors, for instance, seem to come with them whether you like them or not, or at least the cutaway flavour is offered as standard with a non cutaway version offered on an extended lead time.

ToneControl

stickyfiddle said:

Cutaway acoustics are for rock bands who still try and do the twiddly bits when they play songs acoustically. 

I’ve had 1 cutaway followed by 3 non-catuways. I don’t miss it at all

I don't need them normally, but helpful on a 12-fret guitar when using DADGAD

DavidR

All good advice as above. You expressed interest in Yamaha LL-11.

Could I therefore also suggest the Yamaha FG5 (dreadnought - about £1,200 - made in China and finished in Japan) and the very worthy Yamaha FG830 (dreadnought - about £380 - China).  I have both instruments. They sound good and rate 'excellent' on the value scale. You might find the FG5 a bit difficult to find new now but have a word with Yamaha London and they will help you find one or order one for you from Hamamatsu. 'Far East' shouldn't be dismissed in comparison with the volume US makers - they're all mass-produced. And actually, the Far East has been making stringed instruments for a lot longer than the US if you think about it!

All the advice on more expensive instruments is good and I have a (US made) Martin OM28 as my 'posh' instrument. OM sized instruments are smaller than dreadnoughts and will (generally) have a little less lower end 'boom'. If you can get a 'Re-imagined' version of the instrument (now the 'Standard' OM28 and about £2,900) they are very nice. The current iteration of the OM28 is the 'Modern Deluxe' and has a few updates but retails for much more (about £3,900). You really should try all the other instruments suggested. They are all quite different in character and tone and you will find a favourite.

Of my 3 acoustics, the FG5 is my favourite but that doesn't mean it would be yours. The best valued of the 3 is the FG830 - I have no idea how Yamaha can market such a good instrument for the price. 

Don't assume US instruments are best as might be implied by the overall content of this thread. Give any instrument you buy to a luthier to set (usually lower) the action for you as you like it. The setup done by shops is usually just a quick checkover rather than a full assessment of action at the nut, bridge saddle and neck relief. Changing the nuts, bridge saddles (perhaps to bone), bridge pins (e.g to bone, ebony, brass) and strings on the cheaper end instruments can markedly improve them so suggest doing that to the luthier whilst they're at it. (Actually, changing/fiddling with bridge saddles and bridge pins is easy enough to do yourself, but I have never had the confidence to do too much to nuts - less margin of error and more difficult to swap).

Have fun looking.

Tannin

DavidR said:

Don't assume US instruments are best as might be implied by the overall content of this thread. 

Absolutely! There are excellent instruments made in many different places. I see that there is a Takamine EF340S for sale in the classifieds here at present for a very reasonable price. Made in Japan Takamines are lovely guitars. Earlier I said that an auditorium / 808 / 000 / concert body would be more of an all-rounder than a dreadnought. Well, sure, but a Japanese-made mahogany Takamine dred ... yep. I'd have one.

(Disclaimer: I haven't played this particular Takamine model and don't know the seller. Make your own judgements.)

Haych

All good stuff, thanks everyone. 

Like I’ve said, it’ll probably be the autumn before I’m in a position to commit, depending on budget etc. 

I don’t have too much experience with acoustic guitars. My first proper acoustic was a Martin D1 not long after the first came out. Lovely guitar for what was a budget instrument and sounded great. It didn’t really like finger style very much though, it needed the energy of a pick to get the best out of it. 

I also had a cheap Takamine for a while, which I gave to my niece. Not bad for the price point, but again a dreadnought shape and playing with a pick was fine but fingers not so much. 

I’ve tried a couple of Taylors in a shop once, and a Gibson Dove. The Taylors were all excellent but not particularly sure they all sounded that good for the money they demanded. The Gibson Dove was really quite nice but the factory setup was appalling - it was barely playable. 

In the meantime I’m doing my usual and researching various instruments via YouTube. 

Yeah, I know I won’t get a personal view properly of what they’re like to play or what they sound like in person but it’s a good place to start. 

The Japanese guitars seem to sound quite a lot brighter, I’ve noticed. Martin generally sound very warm by comparison. Taylor have their own thing going on - I watched a side by side of a Taylor 314 (I think) and the Yamaha LL16, for me the Yammy won hands down. 

I have to say, though, so far my pick of the bunch just based on YouTube is the J45. 

When the time is right I’ll get out and play a few if I can - we’ll probably be in lockdown again by then knowing my luck. 

Keep the suggestions and general advice coming though. It’s really interesting stuff. If I can end up with a nice guitar I can keep on the living room wall and pick up and play at a second’s notice then I’ll be pleased. If it’s a rewarding instrument to play then I’ll be very happy indeed. 

Tannin

If you get a J-45 to hang on the wall, be sure to get something to cover it with, such as a a tarpaulin. 

Lewy

crunchman said:

  Most Martins are 25.4", but the OM is 24.9".  The OM doesn't have quite so much high end snap and sounds a bit warmer. 

OMs are 25.4" too. 0, 00 and 000 shapes are 24.9

crunchman

Lewy said:

crunchman said:

  Most Martins are 25.4", but the OM is 24.9".  The OM doesn't have quite so much high end snap and sounds a bit warmer. 

OMs are 25.4" too. 0, 00 and 000 shapes are 24.9

Sorry.  Brain freeze.  Got OM and OOO mized up.

Lewy

crunchman said:

Lewy said:

crunchman said:

  Most Martins are 25.4", but the OM is 24.9".  The OM doesn't have quite so much high end snap and sounds a bit warmer. 

OMs are 25.4" too. 0, 00 and 000 shapes are 24.9

Sorry.  Brain freeze.  Got OM and OOO mized up.

It's interesting through because in my experience of OMs, the body shape and longer scale actually add up to less than the sum of their parts. I've had a couple of OMs (a Martin and a Collings) and after a while kind of got frustrated with them, always wishing they had more of something, either the playability of a short scale or the grunt of a dread.

ToneControl

Lewy said:

crunchman said:

Lewy said:

crunchman said:

  Most Martins are 25.4", but the OM is 24.9".  The OM doesn't have quite so much high end snap and sounds a bit warmer. 

OMs are 25.4" too. 0, 00 and 000 shapes are 24.9

Sorry.  Brain freeze.  Got OM and OOO mized up.

It's interesting through because in my experience of OMs, the body shape and longer scale actually add up to less than the sum of their parts. I've had a couple of OMs (a Martin and a Collings) and after a while kind of got frustrated with them, always wishing they had more of something, either the playability of a short scale or the grunt of a dread.

I had some OMs. Larrivee and Bourgeois
I thought the sound was not as complete as a Jumbo or Dread.

I believe that OMs are popular to mic up for recordings

brojangles

I agree with everyone who's said HD28 or J45.

A responsive 28 type dread with scalloped bracing will work fine for fingerstyle and you can still strum it. J45 has the shorter scale and they're nice to look at.

OMs always feel weird to me with the long scale and the smaller body. 

Haych

brojangles said:

I agree with everyone who's said HD28 or J45.

A responsive 28 type dread with scalloped bracing will work fine for fingerstyle and you can still strum it. J45 has the shorter scale and they're nice to look at.

OMs always feel weird to me with the long scale and the smaller body. 

Will have to try both when the time comes.  I think the Martin HD28, new at least, is quite a bit more than the J45, that could be a deciding factor but will see when closer to the actual time.

I'm almost toying with the idea of giving up electric altogether, selling all the guitars, amps and effects and throwing the resulting cash towards a decent acoustic.

Part of me reckons I'd be happier but part of me also reckons I'd regret it and end up buying it all over again.  

ToneControl

Haych said:

brojangles said:

I agree with everyone who's said HD28 or J45.

A responsive 28 type dread with scalloped bracing will work fine for fingerstyle and you can still strum it. J45 has the shorter scale and they're nice to look at.

OMs always feel weird to me with the long scale and the smaller body. 

Will have to try both when the time comes.  I think the Martin HD28, new at least, is quite a bit more than the J45, that could be a deciding factor but will see when closer to the actual time.

I'm almost toying with the idea of giving up electric altogether, selling all the guitars, amps and effects and throwing the resulting cash towards a decent acoustic.

Part of me reckons I'd be happier but part of me also reckons I'd regret it and end up buying it all over again.  

would be a mistake
I have played almost entirely acoustic for 2-3 years, now back on mostly electric

Moe_Zambeek

Tannin said:

DavidR said:

Don't assume US instruments are best as might be implied by the overall content of this thread. 

Absolutely! There are excellent instruments made in many different places. I see that there is a Takamine EF340S for sale in the classifieds here at present for a very reasonable price. Made in Japan Takamines are lovely guitars. Earlier I said that an auditorium / 808 / 000 / concert body would be more of an all-rounder than a dreadnought. Well, sure, but a Japanese-made mahogany Takamine dred ... yep. I'd have one.

(Disclaimer: I haven't played this particular Takamine model and don't know the seller. Make your own judgements.)

Takamine seller is *very* reputable

That particular guitar is basically a D-18, spruce top (thermo) and mahogany back and sides. Good strummer, decent fingerpicker if your fingers are well exercised. Has a beefy neck though, inspired I guess by early Martins.

I would agree that Taks are worth looking at, though not at new retail prices. I personally love the P7D with the asymetrical neck but hard to come by these days.

I like Matons as well - the 808s are a slightly smaller body and seem to be decent all rounders, though a bit rougher in the finishing than Martin or Taylor et al. I ultimately decided they were just a tad expensive for what you got.

I also like L'arrivees - though the ones I have tried have all been a bit lighter in the bass and low mids than other makers. Willie Watson certainly gets everything he needs from his L'arrivee OM though.

Last year I sold off a Martin 00-16 - all mahogany. It was actually OK for strumming but you had to stay your hand a bit or it would compress and choke. Lighter pick and lighter touch required, but it was very easy to play - modern neck profile, 1 11/16s nut and shorter scale.  

@Tannin - can you expand on your thoughts about Cole Clark? I find them strangely compelling yet at the same time absolutely hideous to look at!