Limiters on master bus

andy_k

I like the idea of headphone software like Sonarworks, where the aim is to correct the eq response of a set of cans to be as flat as possible, the aim is to have an uncoloured listening experience. Emulating a different room is a step too far for me really, I don't live in that room, so don't hear 'everything' that way, just another variable in the way.
Reference a track you feel sounds perfect, in whatever speakers / headphones, and compare it with your own mix.
A plugin, or insert on your Master bus should be not altering the mix by enough to be noticeable, the process cannot perform miracles.
We all now have the ability to get closer to perfection, lets not lose the benefits a good mastering engineer can add to our stuff.
Virtual studios can be fun, to allow us to hear alternative versions of the final product, but attempting to rely on them as a way to finalise a project will be on a par with using a preset in Izotope, if that is the sound you want, go with it, but lets not pretend it will be the same.
Aim for a mastered track to be -14, -12, or push it to be -6 LUFS, and move on. Experience will get you to the number you want, let the streaming services do what they do - it will change, will you re-mix everything to suit?, I doubt it, you'll be doing something else.
Don't forget to bypass your plugins for the final render, I have done it myself. Still waiting for FGX2.

octatonic

andy_k said:

I like the idea of headphone software like Sonarworks, where the aim is to correct the eq response of a set of cans to be as flat as possible, the aim is to have an uncoloured listening experience. Emulating a different room is a step too far for me really, I don't live in that room, so don't hear 'everything' that way, just another variable in the way.
Reference a track you feel sounds perfect, in whatever speakers / headphones, and compare it with your own mix.

Especially when so many rooms are either poorly designs or completely undesigned.

I'm actually auditioning the Trinnov system right now, which is AAAA-MAZING.
Expensive though.

I can't think of a situation where I'd want to model another room.
I don't really rate Sonarworks myself- I have it, I have used it but it is a bit of a blunt instrument.

domforr

I quite like the Waves plugin, just purely because it gives the impression of not having everything strictly on one side of the headphones - i.e. there's some cross noise from left into right and vice versa. It's not going to emulate Abbey Road of course, but like anything it's small percentages. I'll probably tire of it in a few weeks though :-)

andy_k

octatonic said:

andy_k said:

I like the idea of headphone software like Sonarworks, where the aim is to correct the eq response of a set of cans to be as flat as possible, the aim is to have an uncoloured listening experience. Emulating a different room is a step too far for me really, I don't live in that room, so don't hear 'everything' that way, just another variable in the way.
Reference a track you feel sounds perfect, in whatever speakers / headphones, and compare it with your own mix.

Especially when so many rooms are either poorly designs or completely undesigned.

I'm actually auditioning the Trinnov system right now, which is AAAA-MAZING.
Expensive though.

I can't think of a situation where I'd want to model another room.
I don't really rate Sonarworks myself- I have it, I have used it but it is a bit of a blunt instrument.

I'm old school, reference on my own things. I know what I like, keep trying to get there. Can't afford a good room, so I make do.
I don't make a living at it.

stratman3142

Can I just check my understanding again. Maybe I'm missing something.

1) Is the master limiting plugin output set to below 0dB?
2) Are the metering plugins (after the master limiter) showing a level below 0dB?
3) Is the fader on the Master track set at 0dB?
4) Are the various meters set to show peak levels?

If the above are true, I would expect the level displayed on the master track to be the same as the level displayed on the metering plugins.

octatonic

domforr said:

I quite like the Waves plugin, just purely because it gives the impression of not having everything strictly on one side of the headphones - i.e. there's some cross noise from left into right and vice versa. It's not going to emulate Abbey Road of course, but like anything it's small percentages. I'll probably tire of it in a few weeks though :-)

Frankly, these things are toys.
I don't know anyone working as a mixer (including myself) who uses them.

andy_k

A limiter, as the final instance on the master bus,  set to -1db, should be Limiting output to -1db, surely.
If it is pre some analysis, the output will be showing some form of inaccuracy of either the limiter, or the analysis, Id trust FF in that case. Any clipping that is occurring must be from an outside source, maybe there is something running in parallel, which has gone un-noticed.
These things are pretty accurate, but may not be calibrated to the same signal?
I often forget to turn off constant gain monitoring in FGX, when I render, it is always obvious, nothing should go above 0db.
 

domforr

stratman3142 said:

Can I just check my understanding again. Maybe I'm missing something.

1) Is the master limiting plugin output set to below 0dB?
2) Are the metering plugins (after the master limiter) showing a level below 0dB?
3) Is the fader on the Master track set at 0dB?
4) Are the various meters set to show peak levels?

If the above are true, I would expect the level displayed on the master track to be the same as the level displayed on the metering plugins.

1) yes - I've set it to -1 db
2) Yes, the metering plugins are below 0db
3) Master track fader is 0db
4) I think so - I haven't changed anything here

domforr

andy_k said:

A limiter, as the final instance on the master bus,  set to -1db, should be Limiting output to -1db, surely.
If it is pre some analysis, the output will be showing some form of inaccuracy of either the limiter, or the analysis, Id trust FF in that case. Any clipping that is occurring must be from an outside source, maybe there is something running in parallel, which has gone un-noticed.
These things are pretty accurate, but may not be calibrated to the same signal?
I often forget to turn off constant gain monitoring in FGX, when I render, it is always obvious, nothing should go above 0db.
 

That's what I would have thought as well. When you say something running in parallel, what could this be?  

spark240

domforr said:

Legionreturns said:

Where are you putting it on the master bus? 

Very last thing in the chain, apart from the metering plugins and a waves headphone studio emulator. 

Shouldn't it be post fader ?

stratman3142

domforr said:

stratman3142 said:

Can I just check my understanding again. Maybe I'm missing something.

1) Is the master limiting plugin output set to below 0dB?
2) Are the metering plugins (after the master limiter) showing a level below 0dB?
3) Is the fader on the Master track set at 0dB?
4) Are the various meters set to show peak levels?

If the above are true, I would expect the level displayed on the master track to be the same as the level displayed on the metering plugins.

1) yes - I've set it to -1 db
2) Yes, the metering plugins are below 0db
3) Master track fader is 0db
4) I think so - I haven't changed anything here

...and is the the Master track and your audio interface still showing levels above 0dB?

If so, as @andy_k said, maybe you have something running in parallel to the output.

Do you get silence if you mute the master track? If not this would indicate that one or more of your tracks might be routed directly to your audio output.

WiresDreamDisasters

Things that eat up headroom: Huge transients, huge low-end.

Control those, and you'll be able to push your limiters a bit further.

Also don't expect one instance to do the same thing as multiple instances, all set with slightly tamer settings. It's a different thing.

domforr

stratman3142 said:

domforr said:

stratman3142 said:

Can I just check my understanding again. Maybe I'm missing something.

1) Is the master limiting plugin output set to below 0dB?
2) Are the metering plugins (after the master limiter) showing a level below 0dB?
3) Is the fader on the Master track set at 0dB?
4) Are the various meters set to show peak levels?

If the above are true, I would expect the level displayed on the master track to be the same as the level displayed on the metering plugins.

1) yes - I've set it to -1 db
2) Yes, the metering plugins are below 0db
3) Master track fader is 0db
4) I think so - I haven't changed anything here

...and is the the Master track and your audio interface still showing levels above 0dB?

If so, as @andy_k said, maybe you have something running in parallel to the output.

Do you get silence if you mute the master track? If not this would indicate that one or more of your tracks might be routed directly to your audio output.

Yes, the master and audio interface are still peaking. If I mute the master there is silence. All the tracks seem to be routed to the master track. Can't see any obvious issues, or things that shouldn't be playing etc.

domforr

I think I may have identified at least part of the problem. I had Arc room corrector plugin on the monitoring fx. This was from a previous project and I completely forgot about it. That explains why the levels on the Audient software showed clipping whilst the master didn't (or vice versa). Also means I've been mixing through headphones with this software on! A rookie mistake no doubt, but you live and learn. 

Cirrus

And even if you don't learn, at least you still live