Dispelling myths

Sporky

hywelg said:

I'd suggest that the best approach would be never to have a buffer inside a pedal. Because then you have the problems mentioned above that not all buffers are equal and you only need one buffer not one in every pedal, especially if they might not all play nicely together.

With proper buffering everything would be guaranteed to play nicely together - that's the point.

As for losing 9v power, with a good quality power supply that should only happen if the mains supply fails, at which point you've got bigger problems.

impmann

One day the guitar world *may* wake up to the marketing man's bullshit - and realise that whenever there is a load of ill-informed crap being spoken on forums and in magazines, its usually because someone is trying to sell a "solution" to a problem you never knew you had.

 

hywelg

Sporky said:

With proper buffering everything would be guaranteed to play nicely together - that's the point.

As for losing 9v power, with a good quality power supply that should only happen if the mains supply fails, at which point you've got bigger problems.

I'll await the day then that all buffered pedals play happily together.!  No, as it happens there are very few buffered pedals that I want. A Klon maybe (hah!!) one of the new Free The Tone pedals (too expensive). I am considering one of the Gig Rig Quarter Master loop switchers, so at that point I'll probably put a Humdinger buffer in before it.

I have lost power for reasons other than mains loss and I have seen a previous bass player lose everything when his size 13's kicked the power connector. I try hard to rule out every possibility of f**k up.

Sporky

hywelg said:

No, as it happens there are very few buffered pedals that I want.

[snip]

I have lost power for reasons other than mains loss and I have seen a previous bass player lose everything when his size 13's kicked the power connector. I try hard to rule out every possibility of f**k up.

I understand that - I just find it a bit frustrating when the arguments against good engineering are based on bad engineering elsewhere!

Power connectors on mission-critical kit should be locking. Similarly the cables should be protected against being tugged, and similarly every bit of the signal chain should be correctly buffered. I'm not holding my breath for any of these to actually happen, mind...

hywelg

Sporky said:

Power connectors on mission-critical kit should be locking.

Are there any locking IEC sockets? Never seen any locking Boss type 2.1mm power sockets. I Protect mine best I can, and the mains is Neutrik Powercon into the board but the power brick is IEC socket though its buried under the top pedal shelf I reckon its safe but if a drunke lout fell onto my board he could easily yank a few 9v connectors out.

Sporky

Dunno about locking IECs, but there are the Neutrik Powercons. If you've got a pedalboard then non-locking 2.1s won't be a problem as you can secure the cables and thus prevent them ever getting enough strain to disconnect them.

What you need is an electric fence to keep the scum punters away from the kit.

hywelg

hywelg said:

 I Protect mine best I can, and the mains is Neutrik Powercon into the board but t

Sporky said:

Dunno about locking IECs, but there are the Neutrik Powercons.

Yep, swear by them.

Sporky

Dagnammit - I was sure I'd actually read your post.

Sorry chief!

There are screw-locking barrel connectors (one of the manufacturers I use at work has them on their wall-wart powered kit) but you need a compatible socket.

ThePrettyDamned

On a side note, I tried a free the tone overdrive the other day. It was completely... Er... Bland. And uninteresting in every way.

Hate to say it, but it sounded kinda like a tubescreamer!

Re buffers, visual sound got it right. I've used 4 of them in a row (that's the axle grease, h2o,jekyl and Hyde and route 66 - I now only own the route 66, and am desperately seeking a v2 h2o!) and it sounded identical to me using just one. It also played nice with the digitech and boss pedals.

Paul_C

Sporky said:

What you need is an electric fence to keep the scum punters away from the kit.

wouldn't that introduce hum ? 

Dave_Mc

Sporky said:

Dave_Mc said:

Also some pedals don't like being behind a buffer.

Only because they are poorly designed.

True, but I mean things like fuzz faces etc. are pretty much standard guitar fare by now...

martinw said:

I think all the VS tests are pretty good, not just the buffer one. They make a critical point about listening with ears rather than eyes.

Oh I agree with listening with your ears rather than your eyes. And I'd even agree that the VS tests are better than many- I just don't agree that they're completely unbiased/fair, because they're still a company which is trying to sell you their stuff.

Sporky said:

randomhandclaps said:

I believe a lot the true bypass propaganda is fuelled by companies that are unwilling to invest and install correct buffering. 

Absolutely - for a small builder, TB is much easier to do, so at the beginning of the boutique gold-rush there was a huge marketing movement to promote TB as technically superior. Sadly a lot of people bought it...

randomhandclaps said:

Buffers are like politicians in that there are so many dire ones that it makes you suspicious of the good ones.

Which is just baffling - it's so easy to implement a good buffer and it solves so many problems.

There's not even any reason why you can't wrap a Fuzz Face or Crybaby in buffers and have it sound good if you really want to stick to the old designs.

Agreed.

The politician thing (by randomhandclaps) was a good analogy ) I'm certainly not against good buffers, just bad ones. And there are enough bad ones that a lot of the time it's just easier to say, "screw this, TBP it is, I'll just get a separate buffer".

(Yeah ok so I have a bunch of buffered pedals, that's more an "in principle" standpoint ) )

Sporky said:

I like the Pete Cornish approach - buffer everything. That's how you get reliability. If every pedal designer followed the engineering standard of building their pedals as components in a larger system, where the preceding and following blocks are unknown, everything would work with everything. You just buffer the input (to present a suitably high input impedance) and the output (to present a suitably low output impedance) and off you go.

The only downside of buffers is that some people can't design good ones, which is frankly somewhat astounding given how simple and well understood buffer circuits are.

Also the cornish stuff costs roughly what a house does, which doesn't help.

But yeah as you said, if someone (everyone, really) did it properly like that and didn't charge a fortune, that'd be the way to go.

Sporky said:

hywelg said:

I'd suggest that the best approach would be never to have a buffer inside a pedal. Because then you have the problems mentioned above that not all buffers are equal and you only need one buffer not one in every pedal, especially if they might not all play nicely together.

With proper buffering everything would be guaranteed to play nicely together - that's the point.

As for losing 9v power, with a good quality power supply that should only happen if the mains supply fails, at which point you've got bigger problems.

LOL

and regarding the first point (as you've rightly implied earlier in the thread), unfortunately that's how things should be rather than as they are currently... You can't really blame people for trying to deal with things as they are, if you ask me.

monquixote

You can get locking IEC connectors:

http://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/power-c136/iec-mains-cables-c137/2m-mains-power-lead-with-locking-iec-connector-uk-3-pin-plug-p4581

You can also get sockets with little hinged cages which drop over the plugs. 

Phil_aka_Pip

Paul_C said:

Sporky said:

What you need is an electric fence to keep the scum punters away from the kit.

wouldn't that introduce hum ? 

not if it were DC

hywelg

monquixote said:

You can get locking IEC connectors:

http://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/power-c136/iec-mains-cables-c137/2m-mains-power-lead-with-locking-iec-connector-uk-3-pin-plug-p4581

You can also get sockets with little hinged cages which drop over the plugs. 

Yes indeed. I also found some on Farnell and RS along with a manufacturers doc

Thanks.

monquixote

Locking cables are a mixed blessing. 

An edict went out at the BBC that headphones had to be locked to the desk to prevent them going walkies a couple of weeks later all the locks were removed after a spate of PCs getting smashed by people absentmindedly walking off with their headphones on. 

viz

And what would happen when the electricity failed?

martinw

Dave_Mc said:

martinw said:

I think all the VS tests are pretty good, not just the buffer one. They make a critical point about listening with ears rather than eyes.

Oh I agree with listening with your ears rather than your eyes. And I'd even agree that the VS tests are better than many- I just don't agree that they're completely unbiased/fair, because they're still a company which is trying to sell you their stuff.

Really? What should they have done differently, to make them more fair? In the overdrive test for instance?

monquixote

viz said:

And what would happen when the electricity failed?

You take advantage of the darkness to slip out the back. 

Pyroman

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Paul_C said:

Sporky said:

What you need is an electric fence to keep the scum punters away from the kit.

wouldn't that introduce hum ? 

not if it were DC

  The hum would be worth it!   Keep your drunken arse away from my stuff, you git!

  On a related note,  you could also do what TC does:  Give the owner the option of TB OR buffered via an internal switch.

 I know I own a bunch of buffered pedals- Boss this and TC that.  No idea if the MXR stuff is or not.  It all seems to get along well enough.  The caviat is that I have a OneSpot w/a pigtail for a power supply- five pedals at once, max.  AND I run some in front and some in the loop, with no cable more than 12'.  I do not own a wah.

Dave_Mc

As I said, I was talking more about the buffer one than the overdrive one. But even the overdrive one, using different styles of guitar and pickups (and even amps) may well have affected how people thought of certain pedals. I mean a lot of people like TSes with single coils and not so much with humbuckers etc. etc. Or even different settings on the pedals, etc.

Admittedly, in that instance, "fair" might be the wrong word. "Thorough" might be a better word.