Dispelling myths

hywelg

ICBM said:

 Properly-implemented soft switching is the right way to do it, and just because some companies don't do it quite properly doesn't negate that.

Indeed, thats why I'm gassing for a Gig Rig Quartermaster or two (one for direct and one for loop effects)

Sporky

ICBM said:

Sporky said:

I tried that a few times and never got it to work (though I know of plenty of people who did). 

It seems to work well enough in the original ProCo RAT II... I wonder why it didn't for you? Puzzling!

I'm confident that the mistake was mine, not in the circuit. It was pretty early on in my pedalbuilding exploits, and shortly afterwards the 3PDTs became affordable. I originally used the Knitters which were really nicely made but about £14 each.

mike_l

Cirrus said:

Could someone let me know whether true bypass or buffered pedals were used in the making of the following songs;

Back in Black - ACDC

Because I've been enjoying all the above but need to know which ones it's ok to carry on liking.

No pedals (I believe) just an SG into a Marshall and a Gretsch into an amp

Cirrus

mike_l said:

Cirrus said:

Could someone let me know whether true bypass or buffered pedals were used in the making of the following songs;

Back in Black - ACDC

Because I've been enjoying all the above but need to know which ones it's ok to carry on liking.

No pedals (I believe) just an SG into a Marshall and a Gretsch into an amp

I heard they used a wireless unit in the studio which among other things boosted the volume a bit. I think I read it from someone who was there, but I can't recall exactly so it might all be terrible Chinese whispers.

If a buffer is enough to get some guitarist's knickers in a twist, can you imagine how they'd feel if they learned one of the quintessentialrock tones was recorded through a shitty '70s vhf wireless unit?

ICBM

If we're getting into the historical analysis there were no buffered pedals used on All Along The Watchtower - there were no buffered pedals then, period.

Hendrix's pedals were either true bypass (Fuzz Face - it has to be, not for tone reasons but because fuzz leaks into the bypass if it's only half-bypassed) or half-bypassed (the rest), which are the most tone-sucking of all the types and probably where the term comes from in the first place. Not only that, he liked curly cables which have very high capacitance and noticeably take off the top end.

Of all the others I doubt any of the pros who use them really give much thought to the bypass type. Most of the ones who use huge rigs are using either Cornish (all buffered) or Bradshaw (relay, I think - but there will be buffers somewhere at least) type switching so it doesn't matter.

mike_l

Cirrus said:

I heard they used a wireless unit in the studio which among other things boosted the volume a bit. I think I read it from someone who was there, but I can't recall exactly so it might all be terrible Chinese whispers.

If a buffer is enough to get some guitarist's knickers in a twist, can you imagine how they'd feel if they learned one of the quintessentialrock tones was recorded through a shitty '70s vhf wireless unit?

That makes no sense,as both use no pedals and a cable stright to amp even when playing live (IIRC, it's been a while since I watched any AC/DC DVD's)....

randomhandclaps

I have a mate who worked for Britannia Row sound company.  He swears blind that when they did AC/DCs sound at Hammersmith that Angus & Malcolm used no amps and in fact everything is piped of to direct units.  Although I have no reason to doubt him I really find it hard to swallow.

Cirrus

mike_l said:

That makes no sense,as both use no pedals and a cable stright to amp even when playing live (IIRC, it's been a while since I watched any AC/DC DVD's)....

Maybe so, but I never got the feeling they were luddites when it came to technology - just that they don't need a complicated rig live. Here's a couple of links;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schaffer-Vega_Diversity_System - see the "Use in recording studios" section

http://www.solodallas.com/acdc-in-the-studio-recording-info-insight/

mike_l

I'm not trying to argue, but I'm sure Angus said he tried a Wah, and sounded like all the other guitarists in Australia, so to be different went straight to his amp.

 

Stand me corrected on the wireless unit (having actually viewed the links

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

The other problem is that buyers have been programmed to not believe it's true bypass unless they see a 3PDT, since it's "known" that you can't do true bypass and an LED without three poles. So it's actually counterproductive from a marketing point of view.

Personally I really dislike having mechanical switching in the signal path at all, it's a recipe for reliability problems and switching noise. Properly-implemented soft switching is the right way to do it, and just because some companies don't do it quite properly doesn't negate that.

LOL. A lot of the time it's not the consumers' fault, either. I remember reading an article recently by a well-known guitarshop (I'm on their mailing list) supposedly debunking bypass myths. One of the first things they said (this is paraphrased, obviously) was, "If you get sound when the pedal is bypassed and you have no power supply or battery connected, this means your pedal is true bypass."

I mean, seriously. It doesn't help that half the efforts to debunk all the myths are written by people with little more clue than those spreading the myths. I very nearly left an indignant response to the article but they wanted your email address and name etc. alongside your reply, which I'm paranoid about. )

So if people can't even get that, how are they gonna get about the different types of switches? Or about relays etc.- which would be one of the ways to implement soft-switching with true bypass, right? And which need power... unless it'd still work when bypassed without power? I actually don't know for sure... )

But to your last point, I agree completely that the correct way to do things is the correct way to do things, regardless of what some chancers do, but at the same time if you're not capable of making the thing yourself you sort of have to live in the real world too, and realise that there are some chancers about and sometimes do things to minimise your chances of getting taken for a ride by those chancers...

EDIT: interestingly, you mentioned about mechanical switches- does that include other switches on the pedal? I know in my (limited compared to yours) experience those wee switches are prone to breaking, too. And the visual sound route 808 has one of those wee switches on it... maybe it's a different type of switch, I dunno. And I suppose they could claim it's likely to be used less than the footswitch. But still.

ddlooping

True bypass?
I remember the time when we used to connect half a dozen pedals (more in my case), often with cheap leads, stick them on a diy pedalboard and just turn the knobs to get the sounds we wanted.

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

Or about relays etc.- which would be one of the ways to implement soft-switching with true bypass, right? And which need power... unless it'd still work when bypassed without power? I actually don't know for sure... )

Yes, if the relay is implemented correctly to give 'normally closed' as the bypass position. Relays are a really nice way of doing it since they're extremely reliable and usually very low-noise (although still prone to DC switching noise if you have a leak from something else, eg the first valve stage of your amp), but their power consumption is a problem in battery-powered pedals. Frantone used relay switching and their typical pedal circuit drew about 5mA... the relay drew another 35! That's just ridiculously wasteful of batteries, and even a problem for some older power supplies if you're running a big board.

Dave_Mc said:

EDIT: interestingly, you mentioned about mechanical switches- does that include other switches on the pedal? I know in my (limited compared to yours) experience those wee switches are prone to breaking, too. And the visual sound route 808 has one of those wee switches on it... maybe it's a different type of switch, I dunno. And I suppose they could claim it's likely to be used less than the footswitch. But still.

Yes, although not as much. I just had to repair a Mooer the other day though - switch broken because they're not mounted properly and it puts a lot of stress on the switch casing. (No nut on the inside so it pulls up on the switch.)

Basically the weak point of all modern electronics are the mechanical interfaces to the world - assuming the rest of the component specs are chosen correctly.

ddlooping said:

True bypass?
I remember the time when we used to connect half a dozen pedals (more in my case), often with cheap leads, stick them on a diy pedalboard and just turn the knobs to get the sounds we wanted.

I still do that.

http://i.imgur.com/ILr6nGh.jpg

Bogwhoppit

ddlooping said:

True bypass?
I remember the time when we used to connect half a dozen pedals (more in my case), often with cheap leads, stick them on a diy pedalboard and just turn the knobs to get the sounds we wanted.

I remember when Wagon Wheels were <this> big

Dave_Mc

^ I've never really liked wagon wheels >:D< Everyone else seems to love them for some reason.

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

Or about relays etc.- which would be one of the ways to implement soft-switching with true bypass, right? And which need power... unless it'd still work when bypassed without power? I actually don't know for sure... )

(a) Yes, if the relay is implemented correctly to give 'normally closed' as the bypass position. Relays are a really nice way of doing it since they're extremely reliable and usually very low-noise (although still prone to DC switching noise if you have a leak from something else, eg the first valve stage of your amp), but their power consumption is a problem in battery-powered pedals. Frantone used relay switching and their typical pedal circuit drew about 5mA... the relay drew another 35! That's just ridiculously wasteful of batteries, and even a problem for some older power supplies if you're running a big board.

Dave_Mc said:

EDIT: interestingly, you mentioned about mechanical switches- does that include other switches on the pedal? I know in my (limited compared to yours) experience those wee switches are prone to breaking, too. And the visual sound route 808 has one of those wee switches on it... maybe it's a different type of switch, I dunno. And I suppose they could claim it's likely to be used less than the footswitch. But still.

(b) Yes, although not as much. I just had to repair a Mooer the other day though - switch broken because they're not mounted properly and it puts a lot of stress on the switch casing. (No nut on the inside so it pulls up on the switch.)

Basically the weak point of all modern electronics are the mechanical interfaces to the world - assuming the rest of the component specs are chosen correctly.

ddlooping said:

True bypass?
I remember the time when we used to connect half a dozen pedals (more in my case), often with cheap leads, stick them on a diy pedalboard and just turn the knobs to get the sounds we wanted.

(c) I still do that.

http://theangelconversations.com/pics/LargeBoard.jpg

(a) thanks

and yeah that's the problem with relays... I suppose buffers draw current too, but nowhere near as much.

I guess the other big problem with buffers (which has probably already been mentioned in the thread) is that if you accidentally pull out the power supply, you get no sound- which is as big of a problem as having a true bypass switch fail on you, if you're in a situation where you can't afford to have your sound cut out on you for even a second. Granted the fix is a lot easier ) Whether or not you actually think of the fix in the heat of the moment is another thing, I've had pedals "die" on me (and this is just in a no-pressure home situation) and after 5-10 minutes of frantic troubleshooting, realised that the dc jack had pulled out very slightly >:D<

I suppose you could have a backup battery in the pedal (like alarm clocks do), but then you run the risk of (a) the battery leaking and killing the pedal (that can happen, right?) and (b) accidentally pulling out the power supply and not noticing and then having a dead battery. Again, the latter is an easy enough fix, but it's still probably not good enough if you're playing an important (paying) gig where everything has to be perfect... EDIT: also (c) that now you have a battery in there you have to constantly remember to remove the input jack, which is incredibly annoying and which is the main reason I use a power supply instead of batteries ) Wouldn't that also put extra stress on the jack sockets, constantly pulling jacks in and out? Maybe not if it's made right and you're careful, but then there's that assumption again, that it'll be "made right" and that guitarists will be careful with their equipment... )

I think the big problem is that each method has its own problems, really, and you have to decide which problems are dealbreakers for your own personal situation. That's not to say that some problems aren't worse than others (I'd be the first to agree that I'm not that keen on a method of switching that's known, from the get-go, to be inherently unreliable), or that in an ideal world all pedals would just be "made properly", but at the same time, murphy's law being what it is, what can go wrong probably will, plus it's clearly not an ideal world )

(b) Thanks. And yeah that's what I figured.

(c) Same here. I have a shedload of pedals on the floor and loads of them have buffers in them (and not even necessarily "good" ones). Do as I say, not as I do...

ddlooping

ICBM said:

ddlooping said:

True bypass?
I remember the time when we used to connect half a dozen pedals (more in my case), often with cheap leads, stick them on a diy pedalboard and just turn the knobs to get the sounds we wanted.

I still do that.

http://theangelconversations.com/pics/LargeBoard.jpg

  I don't (well, I still turn knobs to get the sounds I want).

ICBM

Hmmm... buffers, A/D converters, digital processing... (Makes sign of the cross)

I've not tried one - I did borrow a Pod XT Live a while back, and hated it - but I don't doubt it does the job for you. I like my Zoom B3 for bass! God knows exactly what goes on between the in and out jacks, and to be honest for once I really don't care. It sounds good, it has about a hundred effects in it, a tuner, a DI thing, it's the size of three pedals, it runs on batteries and it fits in the pocket of my gig bag. Can't do that with a pedalboard.

Sporky

ICBM said:

Hmmm... buffers, A/D converters, digital processing... (Makes sign of the cross)

Though, that said, fewer A/D and D/A stages and fewer buffers than on most pedalboards where you'd have a delay and a reverb and possibly some sort of modulation doohickey.

fretmeister

ThePrettyDamned said:

On a side note, I tried a free the tone overdrive the other day. It was completely... Er... Bland. And uninteresting in every way.

Yeah - but did you use it with the right colour cable that he recommends. (the giant knobstain)

mike_l

fretmeister said:

Yeah - but did you use it with the right colour cable that he recommends. (the giant knobstain)

Pink cables?