Help - venue dB limiters and liability

darius

We’ve got a covid postponed wedding gig coming up and we’ve just been hit by the venue’s ‘rider’ rules and Do’s and Dont’s. 

PAT test certificates. Nope.
Public Liability Insurance. Nope.
and the potentially gig killing…
You will connect to our Sound limited power, which will cut off if 95dB for 3secs.

Experience and help needed.

PAT testing - I can probably and probably should get this sorted through local friends.

Liability - how do you insure an amateur weekend warrior non professional band? All the websites assume you’re a professional entity. None of us are in the MU. Any advice? Assume I have no knowledge. 

95dB - This sounds low to me. We’re a loud rock band. I think we’re screwed. 

mrkb

How far away is the decibel meter from the stage? Is the venue open or a closed room? A drum kit can hit 110 db easily, though only for a fraction of a second, might need to do ekit to get down to 95 db.  In fact I think I can hit 95 db just singing loudly in my music room.

Jalapeno

I'd go in for a soundcheck IIWY, 95db seems pretty low

Roland

Turn down the gig. Audience clapping and shouting during speeches is that loud. 

https://www.uofmhealth.org/health-library/tf4173

fretmeister

For the insurance - the MU is a good option and you get the membership benefits as well as the insurance.
But you'll find that some equipment insurers also offer PL cover as an add-on.

It's actually pretty cheap, and if you ever need to claim on it, worth every penny.


95db is low - IIRC that's about the same as a drill (not a road drill!).

The snare could trigger that on it's own.

slacker

Run like the wind.

Whistler

Given that above 85dB you should be wearing hearing protection, it seems a generous limit to me. The experts say that hearing damage starts to occur after about 45-50 minutes at a constant 95dB, so with a wedding set list that may stretch to twice that.

As for that meter, if your drummer is a hard hitter then he will be pumping out 110db+ all by himself. A band on top of that will probably push your sound to 120dB, measured 1 metre in front of the band. That will equate to 114dB 2 at metres, 108dB at 4 metres, 100 at 8 metres, 94dB at 16 metres. How far away from the meter will the band be? Probably not 16 metres. Maybe 4 metres, so you will need to learn to rehearse at a quarter of the usual intensity to keep below 95dB for 3 seconds.

What levels do you usually rehearse at? Have you ever measured the level? Apps such as SPL Meter are as accurate as hand-held SPL (sound pressure level) meters, so for your own hearing's sake as well as your audience's, get used to what levels you play at.

darius

mrkb said:

How far away is the decibel meter from the stage? Is the venue open or a closed room? A drum kit can hit 110 db easily, though only for a fraction of a second, might need to do ekit to get down to 95 db.  In fact I think I can hit 95 db just singing loudly in my music room.

No idea
and 
No idea
and
I think an acoustic gig and vocals could hit 95dB

Ossyrocks

Defo don’t do it. I’ve tried to play gigs with a 95db limiter and it’s basically impossible. All power cuts out often, which is embarrassing, not to mention the danger to equipment on stage constantly having power cut and reinstated. The audience talking loudly will drown the band at that volume.

Re insurance and PAT testing. The last time that was a stipulation, we sorted it all, and on arrival no one gave a shit if we had it or not.

darius

Ossyrocks said:

Defo don’t do it. I’ve tried to play gigs with a 95db limiter and it’s basically impossible. All power cuts out often, which is embarrassing, not to mention the danger to equipment on stage constantly having power cut and reinstated. The audience talking loudly will drown the band at that volume.

This is what I’m worried about. 

Fully hooked up wireless PA and DHX lights cutting out and rebooting? 
2 lovely valve amps subjected to power cuts?
Not much of a party is it?

ICBM

Just turn it down. If you're a rock band with a drummer, it's the wrong gig.

I've played in acoustic bands which had trouble with limiters set as low as that...

The problem (other than the massive annoyance of suddenly losing everything other than the drums mid-song) isn't actually with valve amps - no amp of any quality that it wouldn't just fail anyway will be damaged by having the power cut off - it's just the same as turning off the amp without using the standby switch, which is fine. The issue is with digital equipment, including some modern mixers etc. I would definitely not risk anything like that if there's a likelihood of a sudden power cutout.

Basically limiters are the wrong application for level sensing equipment. The only worthwhile solution is to bypass them - either with an extension cable from somewhere which is not controlled by it, or a massive industrial uninterruptible power supply - and use it for guidance only.

Roland

I went to a wedding where the power was cut when guests applauded the speeches. I investigated a hall in a Cambridge college. The drummer clapped his hands to test the reverb, and the limiter cut the power.

Danny1969

PAT testing is easy. Any competent person can do it. Most venues require it even if they don't understand it. PAT test your gear, give each piece a sticker with a retest date and make a spreadsheet to email to the venue. That will shut them up. 

PLI 
Again, completely normal for hotel / wedding / corp work. You can get a single day for about £28 or a year for around £78 

Noise limiter
You learn to work around these. The actual dB limit isn't all the information you need, you need to know the weighting as A and C are different depending on the frequency.  Over the years i've done all kinds of things from using an inline pad between their mic and the meter if the mic is external, which a lot of older ones are,  to using a small UPS for the FOH desk and a huge one for the band. Sadly the large HP 3.2KW I had fell off the loading trolly and smashed so we have resorted to bribing people since and running the band off a cooker socket or similar when the venue has a limiter. 

Valve amps aren't particularly prone to problems from power failure. Modern class D is more of a problem as inrush current components can need a reset time and anything with a shutdown procedure like a digital desk will certainly need a steady supply, I still have a UPS on ours. 

If you do this kind of work all the time then you tend to get geared up for it as the money is generally very good. If this is a one off though you might just wanna swerve it   

kennedydream1980

It is achievable to play at 95db as a band, but the issue is the ambient noise of the room. We played a wedding venue where they had a db limiter set at 95db. We had a tip off about the limiter so we asked the drummer to bring his electric kit. Me and the other guitarist both had valve amps but we turned them way down. We sound checked and made sure we were well within the limits of the limiter.

Come to the night time with 300+ people in the room chatting and having a merry ole time and it was whole different ball game. It was virtually impossible to play and we had to massively cut short our set due to the continuous disruption of the power cutting off.

The management of the venue were obviously very sensitive to the fact they had this sound meter and the issues it may cause, plus the fact it may result in them losing some very lucrative expensive wedding bookings. The bass player in my band on the night in question made a comment about the absurdity of it all on our Facebook page. Within a couple of minutes a member of the management team from the venue came over asking us to take the post down or they would sue us for libellous comments!!!

I felt sorry for the wedding party as the venue were very sneaky and didn’t tell them about the sound meter when they booked. I even think the couple involved went after the venue for compensation.

darius

This is a friend’s daughter’s wedding. They want us because we’re a raucous good time loud party rock band. @kennedydream1980 I reckon this is another sneaky venue trap. I think a trip to the venue and some negotiation is in order.

EricTheWeary

We played a wedding that required PAT and our singer just stole stickers from work and we plastered them on everything. Venue never looked anyway. 

Probably not much help but given the limiter you’ll be cancelling the gig anyway. 

[ actually that wedding had a limiter which kicked in at 10pm and they just unplugged us to allow us to finish] 

https://i.imgur.com/SioAxr3.jpg

MikkiMcMurderer

Venues who have this are defrauding their clients when they tell them they can have live music. The audience sound alone will trip the metre.
Filling the microphone hole with paper or lots of hairspray can help in a pinch!

Jalapeno

Practiced in a village hall with one, first time the trumpet went "parp" the sockets AND lights cut out. The knobber caretaker and turned the sensitivity down on his own decision. Band leader gave him short shrift, and got it readjusted immediately.

They're still a bloody pain though !  Avoid !

fastonebaz

I'm playing a 95db gig Saturday.  We played there before and whilst we had to turn down a little,  it didn't seem too quiet or impact us really much at all.  

darius

fastonebaz said:

I'm playing a 95db gig Saturday.  We played there before and whilst we had to turn down a little,  it didn't seem too quiet or impact us really much at all.  

Is it power cut limit or a flashing light limit?
I’m quite happy to play to light limit and deal with a grumpy bar manager giving me the thumbs down all night. But not an automated power cut.

Cols

Played one once.  It tripped any time the drummer hit the snare, nothing which we could actually turn down.  We ended up running a very long extension lead to the nearest socket which wasn’t controlled by the decibelometer.

It’s not just the venue being arsey.  If they’re in a residential area, it’s a common precondition for having a live music licence to soothe the locals.