Bourgeois - holy crap

guitarjack66

They look beautiful,but from a real world point of view are these prices close to being justified based on hours put in,sourcing prices,etc? Or is it a supply and demand type of thing?

stickyfiddle

guitarjack66 said:

They look beautiful,but from a real world point of view are these prices close to being justified based on hours put in,sourcing prices,etc? Or is it a supply and demand type of thing?

Well at that end of the market I guess we’re not talking about a traditional cost+margin pricing model, and it’s more about pricing where the market will let you. 

You absolutely do get some of the absolute best woods available, and small builders making things by hand and paying specific attention to tuning the bracing to get the top to resonate as well as possible, compared with someone like Martin or Taylor who basically make every guitar exactly the same. That of course doesn’t guarantee every guitar is better for you as a player. 

And let’s not be under any illusion that your average pub punter would hear the difference… but a nice guitar is a lovely thing 

guitarjack66

stickyfiddle said:

guitarjack66 said:

They look beautiful,but from a real world point of view are these prices close to being justified based on hours put in,sourcing prices,etc? Or is it a supply and demand type of thing?

Well at that end of the market I guess we’re not talking about a traditional cost+margin pricing model, and it’s more about pricing where the market will let you. 

You absolutely do get some of the absolute best woods available, and small builders making things by hand and paying specific attention to tuning the bracing to get the top to resonate as well as possible, compared with someone like Martin or Taylor who basically make every guitar exactly the same. That of course doesn’t guarantee every guitar is better for you as a player. 

And let’s not be under any illusion that your average pub punter would hear the difference… but a nice guitar is a lovely thing 

Oh,I agree. A nice guitar is like a favourite painting or piece of furniture and desirable to have and use. 

ToneControl

stickyfiddle said:

ToneControl said:

stickyfiddle said:

Just as I'd convinced myself my Martin was good enough, I've discovered that in May we're going to be staying with a 15 minute drive of Dream Guitars, who currently have an even prettier Bourgeois and a bunch of other builders I've never even heard of but look spectacular...

https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/instruments/guitars/steel-string-guitars/flattop/shopby/dreadnought.html

add Goodall guitars to your list

They look a bit fancy for my liking! 

surely not

I started with a Taylor, didn't like it
Then had a few Larrivee
Next had 2 Bourgeois, and a Goodall they were a different league, 

• Bourgeois OMC Sean Watkins signature - I think the Adirondack was too stiff for my fingerpicking
• Bourgeois DS260 was too bright for me - walnut body I think

I tried Martins, and they were a minimum of double the price for anything like the same sound quality and responsiveness

You can sometimes find used Goodall and Bourgeois in the UK for lower prices than in the US, since few people know the brand names. James Goodall had a bigger workshop in Hawaii for a while, made a lot of Koa instruments, then downsized and moved back to California, with all the machines and tooling. Now it's just him and his son making them, supply/demand has pushed up new prices

stickyfiddle

Yeah, no argument about overall quality, I've just never liked that look of exotic wood backs, wood binding, extra MOP etc. I can't not do that - a guitar has to appeal visually or I just can't be arsed. 

bertie

guitarjack66 said:

They look beautiful,but from a real world point of view are these prices close to being justified based on hours put in,sourcing prices,etc? Or is it a supply and demand type of thing?

tables

1. Ikea  flat pack "laminate"  £100    -   works, and you can eat your dinner off it
2. "quality  store"  £500  -  solid wood,  you can eat your dinner off it
3. made by small maker  £3000 + -   solid wood , hand crafted,  you can eat your dinner off it
4. bespoke made by top cabinet maker  £ ??   -  solid top quality wood, can eat your dinner of it 

stickyfiddle

bertie said:

guitarjack66 said:

They look beautiful,but from a real world point of view are these prices close to being justified based on hours put in,sourcing prices,etc? Or is it a supply and demand type of thing?

tables

1. Ikea  flat pack "laminate"  £100    -   works, and you can eat your dinner off it
2. "quality  store"  £500  -  solid wood,  you can eat your dinner off it
3. made by small maker  £3000 + -   solid wood , hand crafted,  you can eat your dinner off it
4. bespoke made by top cabinet maker  £ ??   -  solid top quality wood, can eat your dinner of it 

I wouldn't assume £500 of dining table gets you solid wood these days..! 

Tannin

There is a law of diminishing returns. Roughly, each time you double your budget, you get half as much more. Past a certain point (let's say £1500 just to put a number on it, half that for an electric) there is little chance that anyone will notice a difference in the sound apart from you and a few other skilled musicians, and then only if you are looking for it. Do a proper blind test and even these experts will battle. 

Nevertheless, the pleasure of playing a really fine instrument is real. It is more rewarding, and because it is more rewarding, you feel more confident and play better, which makes it more rewarding, and so on. Every guitarist should have at least one really fine instrument. (Some of us have several, which isn't necessary. But it's fun.) 

@ToneControl makes a good point: some brands have become famous and charge a premium; there are lesser-known brands every bit as good which you can buy, especially on the used market, at a bit of a discount.

Used single-luthier instruments can be a real bargain (unless the maker is really well-known). Used Martins and Gibsons are expensive everywhere. (Or they "hold their resale value well" - which phrase you employ depends on whether you are buying or selling.)  Used Larivees and Breedloves can be quite affordable here in Oz and in the UK, probably less so in the States where they are better-known. I keep hoping that someone will offer me a used Lakewood or Atkin or Brook for half what it's worth because no-one here has heard of them. 

ToneControl

Tannin said:

There is a law of diminishing returns. Roughly, each time you double your budget, you get half as much more. Past a certain point (let's say £1500 just to put a number on it, half that for an electric) there is little chance that anyone will notice a difference in the sound apart from you and a few other skilled musicians, and then only if you are looking for it. Do a proper blind test and even these experts will battle. 

Nevertheless, the pleasure of playing a really fine instrument is real. It is more rewarding, and because it is more rewarding, you feel more confident and play better, which makes it more rewarding, and so on. Every guitarist should have at least one really fine instrument. (Some of us have several, which isn't necessary. But it's fun.) 

@ToneControl makes a good point: some brands have become famous and charge a premium; there are lesser-known brands every bit as good which you can buy, especially on the used market, at a bit of a discount.

Used single-luthier instruments can be a real bargain (unless the maker is really well-known). Used Martins and Gibsons are expensive everywhere. (Or they "hold their resale value well" - which phrase you employ depends on whether you are buying or selling.)  Used Larivees and Breedloves can be quite affordable here in Oz and in the UK, probably less so in the States where they are better-known. I keep hoping that someone will offer me a used Lakewood or Atkin or Brook for half what it's worth because no-one here has heard of them. 

I'd set the thresholds slightly higher, based on there being a real tangible difference when playing these:
for new electrics about £1000-£1200. But there are far more challenges to this, some below £1k new are excellent 
for new acoustics £2500-3000 - very rare to find anything stunning below £2k new for a long time. It's a lot harder to make an acoustic guitar well - generally speaking, CNC production lines don't create top-level acoustics. (NB: when lower wage countries learn how to build them, this will change)

Tannin

^ All of that makes sense, particularly the bit about thresholds - I did my thinking in AUD and mentally converted to GBP, but I didn't think to add in 20% VAT.

bertie

stickyfiddle said:

I wouldn't assume £500 of dining table gets you solid wood these days..

you're right - £560 at Oak Furnitureland

stickyfiddle

I may have found an even better one. Update tomorrow 

Tannin

Speaking of Breedlove, I just skipped an opportunity to buy this one: https://www.premierguitars.com.au/collections/acoustic/products/breedlove-journey-concert-ltd-sitka-brazilian-22-of-50-usa-2016

It was about the same price as the guitar I did buy and I'd have liked to try the Breedlove before deciding, but it would have taken three days to drive to Sydney and back, so I just went with the other one. And no, I'm not buying two guitars in this price range this year. Just the same, I would have liked to try it.

drofluf

stickyfiddle said:

I may have found an even better one. Update tomorrow 

@stickyfiddle have you seen this one? No connection etc. just thought might be of interest 

bertie

drofluf said:

stickyfiddle said:

I may have found an even better one. Update tomorrow 

@stickyfiddle have you seen this one? No connection etc. just thought might be of interest 

* looks *   ?  ?

stickyfiddle

Ahem. 

Aged tone Mahogany Dread with Adirondack top. Basically “just” a D18 but made with as little compromise as possible and top tuned by Mr Bourgeois 

Most importantly m, it’s undoubtedly one of the best guitars I’ve ever played and will be meeting me in our DC hotel just before we fly home from our current trip. 

Mellish

That looks a cool customer .

Nothing wrong with "just" a D-18 - a good, solid Dread, as you know  

stickyfiddle

Exactly. My benchmark has always been a late-40s (I think) D18 that my first girlfriend’s dad had. I only played it once hit what a guitar. 

This has a very similar vibe for a LOT less money!! 

Not sure if it will usurp my HD28 or just complement it, but I’m happy with either option

earwighoney

stickyfiddle said:

Exactly. My benchmark has always been a late-40s (I think) D18 that my first girlfriend’s dad had. I only played it once hit what a guitar. 

This has a very similar vibe for a LOT less money!! 

Not sure if it will usurp my HD28 or just complement it, but I’m happy with either option

Wow. Great work. 

When you take the strings off (eventually) can you use your phone to take a picture of the neck joint at the body and below the fretboard.

Their double bolt neck joint is one of the greatest modern innovations in guitars. 

drofluf

bertie said:

drofluf said:

stickyfiddle said:

I may have found an even better one. Update tomorrow 

@stickyfiddle have you seen this one? No connection etc. just thought might be of interest 

* looks *   ?  ?

Sorry senior moment forgot to post the link

https://acousticsoundboard.co.uk/thread/13506/fs-bourgeois-adirondack-mahogany-om