40 wats not loud enough ?

Barney

yeah thats me who done the jazz course..:) the band though is a Blues /rock band...i actually use a boogie mk4 all the time its just i used a Redplate yesterday and felt i was struggling a bit....we just play off the backline no mic,n up the boogie copes no problem at all but its 80watts with a EV in it so it does cut..
@Catthan

Barney

Voxman said:

A few thoughts that might help:

• Using an EQ or a clean booster pedal (I use the BBE Bosta Grand) could be an economic solution that can make all the difference - plus an EQ will give you more 'tone shaping' control not available from your amp directly.  Either should give you (typically) up to a 15db boost.  When you consider that the volume increase from a 50w amp to a 100w amp (assuming same speaker) is only about 3dB, that's a lot of extra volume!  You might find that best results are in the FX loop.  

• Another approach to increasing volume in pure backline is to change the speaker to one with higher sensitivity.  To put this in persepective - if you had two identical amps with the same 97dB speaker, but one amp was 50w and the other 100w, and you put a 101 db speaker in the 50w, it would be at least as loud if not louder than the 100w amp!          

•  Also, the thought occurs - if your drummer is miking up, is there any reason you can't do the same?  Jimmy Page was well known for miking up smaller amps and making them sound huge! 

• If your amp has the facility to add one, an extension cab is another solution to consider because more air being moved gives you a fuller louder sound which you can spread better by placing the amp/cab a little apart.

• Sometimes it's not so much volume that's needed as greater definition to cut through the mix.  I would urge you to try out a BBE Sonic Stomp Maximiser (there are various demos on you-tube).  This works differently to an EQ, and essentially helps your speakers to process higher and lower frequencies more efficiently to give a clearer, punchier tone.  It's like taking a blanket off your amp that you never knew you had!  

• Finally, and sorry for stating obvious stuff that you probably know all about anyway, amp positioning is very important too ie raising it off the floor at a slight angle etc to project sound better. And if your drummer really is that loud, does he genuinely need to be or is a simple solution just to turn him down a notch or two! lol

      

 

thanks ...the sonic maximizer sounds interesting ...i think it could have done with some more bite ..i wonder if this would do it

Danny1969

Your gonna ruin your ears if you don't mic your amp, whever your amp is loud enough isn't the point, the point is you can't stand in front of a loud guitar amp on a regular basis and not expect hearing damage. Once the damage is done there's no going back. see this thread :

http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/328504/#Comment_328504

All the guys I know playing pro or semi pro are using low stage volume, mic'ed up, in ear monitors. It protects your hearing, FOH sound is improved so everyone wins. The ol skool approach is really only for players who insist they can't get their amp to sound good until it's peeling the paint off the walls 

 

Barney

i think i might know what the problem has been ...i put the extension speaker in the 4 ohm jack with the combo speaker still in the 8 ohm ...both should have went in 4 ohm ....hope i didnt do any damage...this might have caused the volume drop and sound being a bit muddy..?

ICBM

Yes, it would. Unlikely to have done any harm though - it might have shortened the valve life a bit due to being a low mismatch, but if the amp works normally when correctly matched then there is no actual damage.

Barney

ICBM said:

Yes, it would. Unlikely to have done any harm though - it might have shortened the valve life a bit due to being a low mismatch, but if the amp works normally when correctly matched then there is no actual damage.

so would there be quite a bit of volume difference...?

Wazmeister

Barney,

As an ex CDS2 owner, Imho I'd say that you've got the wrong amp IF you think it's not loud enough ! Wow, those Redplates are incredibly loud. Mid range or bass tweaks are usually whats needed with them... And less reliance on the drive channel. What settings did you have ?

I believe that sometimes YOU may not be able to hear yourself, but 'out there' they would. Foldback issues are common with a smaller 1x12.

If you are struggling to be heard over the band, maybe a bigger cab might help. It's penultimatley why my RP went, as its a stunning amp BUT not right for me at that time. Its ok to change your amp, and move on...

try a 2x12 or 4x12 and see how that changes things.

Barney

Wazmeister said:

Barney,

As an ex CDS2 owner, Imho I'd say that you've got the wrong amp IF you think it's not loud enough ! Wow, those Redplates are incredibly loud. Mid range or bass tweaks are usually whats needed with them... And less reliance on the drive channel. What settings did you have ?

I believe that sometimes YOU may not be able to hear yourself, but 'out there' they would. Foldback issues are common with a smaller 1x12.

If you are struggling to be heard over the band, maybe a bigger cab might help. It's penultimatley why my RP went, as its a stunning amp BUT not right for me at that time. Its ok to change your amp, and move on...

try a 2x12 or 4x12 and see how that changes things.

i thought i had the ohmage wrong but was ok...
i had the tweed setting with the left hand vol at 7 ....i had the master at around 8....presence fairly high about 7/8 treble sort of 7/8 as well all the other controls at noon... the tweed channel was a very good crunch sound ..i thought the lead went quieter even with the level at sort of 8 ...you could be right about the mid range maybe i should have backed the lead gain and drive of a bit but thought i would have lost the volume...? i had a 2x12 extension cab as well....i just thought i wouldnt have needed that much volume but we are quite a loud blues /rock band

ICBM

The problem with judging amp power and volume is that the relationship is so completely non-linear.

3dB really isn't much of a change in volume, but requires double the amp power. It gets even worse if you're comparing a clean sound to an overdriven one - you typically need around 6dB more headroom for true clean at the same volume as overdrive, ie you need *four times* as much amp power. It's also affected by tone - if you want a lot of bottom end you need around 3dB more than you do if you only want midrange and treble, so that's another doubling of amp power needed… so you could need eight times the power to achieve a full-range clean tone at the same volume as to get a midrange overdriven one. And then the drummer plays a bit harder and suddenly your "loud" 40-watter doesn't cut it, because you need 80W just to keep up with where 10 would have got you with a different type of sound.

Adding too much gain with a lower-powered amp doesn't always make it louder either - if the power stage gets pushed too hard it can sometimes compress too much and actually seem quieter, since perceived volume is more dependent on transients and dynamics than on outright power, up to a point.

Wazmeister

Barney said:

Wazmeister said:

Barney,

As an ex CDS2 owner, Imho I'd say that you've got the wrong amp IF you think it's not loud enough ! Wow, those Redplates are incredibly loud. Mid range or bass tweaks are usually whats needed with them... And less reliance on the drive channel. What settings did you have ?

I believe that sometimes YOU may not be able to hear yourself, but 'out there' they would. Foldback issues are common with a smaller 1x12.

If you are struggling to be heard over the band, maybe a bigger cab might help. It's penultimatley why my RP went, as its a stunning amp BUT not right for me at that time. Its ok to change your amp, and move on...

try a 2x12 or 4x12 and see how that changes things.

i thought i had the ohmage wrong but was ok...
i had the tweed setting with the left hand vol at 7 ....i had the master at around 8....presence fairly high about 7/8 treble sort of 7/8 as well all the other controls at noon... the tweed channel was a very good crunch sound ..i thought the lead went quieter even with the level at sort of 8 ...you could be right about the mid range maybe i should have backed the lead gain and drive of a bit but thought i would have lost the volume...? i had a 2x12 extension cab as well....i just thought i wouldnt have needed that much volume but we are quite a loud blues /rock band

To be fair Barney, this is the perennial amp problem, and is the reason why I guess the CDS2 was replaced by the RP40; in so much as it is really difficult in reality to balance the tweed AND drive channels so that they are interchangeable.

My solution was not to consider the CDS2 as 2/3 channel, but a one channel amp. I used the boost to help solos, but just selected one sound per song. Switching between BF, tweed and drive sounds was not easy live, imho. Contrary to the hype, I still believe that the CDS2 needs an additional drive pedal to provide the oomph !!

For example, the Bearfoot Model H 3 Knob was superb at this...

Make sense ?

But, as I've said before, as a clean/BF platform, I think that the CDS2 tones I had were some of the best I've encountered...

As ever, YMMV....

Barney

Wazmeister said:

Barney said:

Wazmeister said:

Barney,

As an ex CDS2 owner, Imho I'd say that you've got the wrong amp IF you think it's not loud enough ! Wow, those Redplates are incredibly loud. Mid range or bass tweaks are usually whats needed with them... And less reliance on the drive channel. What settings did you have ?

I believe that sometimes YOU may not be able to hear yourself, but 'out there' they would. Foldback issues are common with a smaller 1x12.

If you are struggling to be heard over the band, maybe a bigger cab might help. It's penultimatley why my RP went, as its a stunning amp BUT not right for me at that time. Its ok to change your amp, and move on...

try a 2x12 or 4x12 and see how that changes things.

i thought i had the ohmage wrong but was ok...
i had the tweed setting with the left hand vol at 7 ....i had the master at around 8....presence fairly high about 7/8 treble sort of 7/8 as well all the other controls at noon... the tweed channel was a very good crunch sound ..i thought the lead went quieter even with the level at sort of 8 ...you could be right about the mid range maybe i should have backed the lead gain and drive of a bit but thought i would have lost the volume...? i had a 2x12 extension cab as well....i just thought i wouldnt have needed that much volume but we are quite a loud blues /rock band

To be fair Barney, this is the perennial amp problem, and is the reason why I guess the CDS2 was replaced by the RP40; in so much as it is really difficult in reality to balance the tweed AND drive channels so that they are interchangeable.

My solution was not to consider the CDS2 as 2/3 channel, but a one channel amp. I used the boost to help solos, but just selected one sound per song. Switching between BF, tweed and drive sounds was not easy live, imho. Contrary to the hype, I still believe that the CDS2 needs an additional drive pedal to provide the oomph !!

For example, the Bearfoot Model H 3 Knob was superb at this...

Make sense ?

But, as I've said before, as a clean/BF platform, I think that the CDS2 tones I had were some of the best I've encountered...

As ever, YMMV....

it does actually make a lot of sense ...the drive channel seems to loose it a bit to me at volume but would probably be great to do recording ...i think i need to mess a bit with it ...its the first time iv used it live...i usually use the mk4 that is so simple in operation once its set..

57Deluxe

Bogwhoppit said:

Just shoot the drummer... sorted.

...+replace with Drum Machine...

MattG

why the hell is your drummer miced up? are you playing arenas or open air festivals?

If i go into a pub or small venue and see a drummer miced up i walk straight out the door as it is completely unnecessary and is too loud to be enjoyable.

competing with a drum kit going through a PA is pretty futile if you are playing an gig so large that the drums needing running through the PA you all do if the drummer does not need the extra volume then he does not need to go through the PA.

I can play my 18 watt 1x12 swart loud enough to keep up with drummers at about 7 on the master and 4 on the volume, so i honestly don't think the problem is with your amp clearly somebody else is being so inconsiderately loud its drowning you out.