Yamaha Beginner Classical Neck Relief.

tekbow

Is there anyway of adjusting it, or rather, should I ask is it normal for a classical guitar to have a massive gap between strings and fretboard past the 10th or 12th Fret?

Friend of mine got one for Chrisymas And it struck me as a bit off, however it was fine below the 10th or 12th I guess.

Then it occured to me it maybe doesn't matter because they're designed to be that way and he wont need access anyway?

tekbow

I should mention that I said nothing about it and congratulated him on his lovely new guitar.

Just wondering if I could adjust it for him.

bertie

IME  all the classicals Ive played (not ££ ones) have had a fairly high action all round  -  I assume to be as they have looser strings which vibrate more and require a higher action  -  

Some of the more ££ ones do have truss rods (access from the sound hole)  but not sure if that applies to all

Mellish

What's a "massive gap"? Can you put figures on it?  

tekbow

bertie said:

IME  all the classicals Ive played (not ££ ones) have had a fairly high action all round  -  I assume to be as they have looser strings which vibrate more and require a higher action  -  

Some of the more ££ ones do have truss rods (access from the sound hole)  but not sure if that applies to all

I checked and couldn't see one.

Mellish said:

What's a "massive gap"? Can you put figures on it?  

I'd say at least a centimetre, increasing past the joint with the body.

I'd have to see it again though as this was a few weeks back and my memory is making it equivalent to a long bow.

Mellish

If no truss rod to adjust relief, you can drop 12th fret action by sanding the saddle bottom. But be careful or you'll introduce buzzing and your friend won't thank you!  

CavemanGrogg

Classical guitars have far higher action than electric guitars, and higher action than steel string acoustics.  Classical guitar strings even the high tension and ultra high tension ones are under far far less tension than either electric or steel string acoustic guitars strings are - hence why it's very common not to have truss rods on classical guitars, and move a hell of a lot more, the higher action prevents the strings from slapping against the fretboard, flamingo guitars which are designed with more percussive playing in mind, where string scratching and strings slapping against the fretboard is wanted, have lower action, closer to that of a steel string acoustic, and sometimes lower.

Mellish

This gap - is it after the point where the neck joins the body? If it is, that's fall-away and you won't alter it by way of the saddle  

CavemanGrogg

I've got an old Yamaha classical guitar with me here if you want me to measure the string height on it, it's not the beginner model though, it's their professional model, and 30+ years old.  And I cam also measure the string height on my Hanika and Ramirez 125 anos.

In fact, here's one better, Yamaha's Classical Guitar Setup spec sheet.

tekbow

Mellish said:

If no truss rod to adjust relief, you can drop 12th fret action by sanding the saddle bottom. But be careful or you'll introduce buzzing and your friend won't thank you!  

Yup, not touching That with a 20ft pole

CavemanGrogg said:

Classical guitars have far higher action than electric guitars, and higher action than steel string acoustics.  Classical guitar strings even the high tension and ultra high tension ones are under far far less tension than either electric or steel string acoustic guitars strings are - hence why it's very common not to have truss rods on classical guitars, and move a hell of a lot more, the higher action prevents the strings from slapping against the fretboard, flamingo guitars which are designed with more percussive playing in mind, where string scratching and strings slapping against the fretboard is wanted, have lower action, closer to that of a steel string acoustic, and sometimes lower.

I was wondering something along these Lines.

Mellish said:

This gap - is it after the point where the neck joins the body? If it is, that's fall-away and you won't alter it by way of the saddle  

Mostly yes, but in my head I remember starting at the upper Accessible frets, a couple frets before the join.

CavemanGrogg said:

I've got an old Yamaha classical guitar with me here if you want me to measure the string height on it, it's not the beginner model though, it's their professional model, and 30+ years old.  And I cam also measure the string height on my Hanika and Ramirez 125 anos.

If you could give it a measure at the body join maybe? And I'll eyeball his next time I see it.

I don't Want t be all "your guitar might be junk when"  1) I don't know that it is, and 2) if I do and it isn't, he'll prob always doubt it isn't and itll spoil a Christmas present he's very enthusiastic about.

thermionic

CavemanGrogg said:

flamingo guitars which are designed with more percussive playing in mind,

Is that because their beaks keep hitting the strings?

Mellish

@tekbow ; - no, don't tell him that his guitar is junk, that wouldn't be a nice thing to do . I'd say that, if he's struggling with high action, he should take it to a tech for a setup  

drofluf

Can you measure it? Classical guitar action is typically around 4mm at the 12th fret on the low E which, if you're used to a low action electric, will feel like miles.

tekbow

drofluf said:

Can you measure it? Classical guitar action is typically around 4mm at the 12th fret on the low E which, if you're used to a low action electric, will feel like miles.

I'm almost sure it's more than that, but I could be wrong.

BillDL

thermionic said:

CavemanGrogg said:

flamingo guitars which are designed with more percussive playing in mind,

Is that because their beaks keep hitting the strings?

I've never quite got the hang of doing rasgueados or golpes while standing on one leg.

BillDL

Take a look at the back of the bridge where it joins the body.  Is there any sign of it lifting off the body?

ToneControl

Also worth considering whether the nut slots are cut to the right depth

bertie

BillDL said:

thermionic said:

CavemanGrogg said:

flamingo guitars which are designed with more percussive playing in mind,

Is that because their beaks keep hitting the strings?

I've never quite got the hang of doing rasgueados or golpes while standing on one leg.

Manfred Mann had it sussed 

CavemanGrogg

ToneControl said:

Also worth considering whether the nut slots are cut to the right depth

I highly doubt it with a Yamaha, to me it sounds like an electric guitarist not realizing the differences in instruments.

GTC

tekbow said:

however it was fine below the 10th or 12th I guess.

I've previously come across a Yamaha Guilele that have a large distinct downward curve on the fretboard where it meets the body and leaves the neck.

Some manufacturers do actually design this in to help optimise the action at the lower frets without fret slap on the upper frets - but it shouldn't be noticeably large. 

ICBM

Relief is not the same as action. Relief is the curvature of the neck, allowing a small gap between the strings and the frets in the middle, to allow for the arc of the string vibration. Action is the height of the strings above the fingerboard, and is mostly a function of the bridge height.

Usually, classical guitars do not have and do not need adjustable relief, because the string tension isn't high enough to affect the curvature of the neck much - they usually have a fixed reinforcement bar, usually metal but sometimes a much stiffer wood (normally ebony) or carbon fibre on some high-end modern ones. There may be a tiny amount of relief even then, which is ideal. Check by holding the guitar normally and fretting the G string at the first and 13th frets. There should be a very small gap between the string and the 7th fret, about the thickness of a thick piece of paper.

The bridge height is usually much higher than on a steel-string acoustic, in order to enable the lower-tension strings to be played cleanly. But not ridiculously high - the height you need to check is at the 12th fret, not over the body - as Mellish said, many classicals have intentional 'fall away' planed into the fingerboard above the body joint, to further enable string movement. It should usually be about 3-4mm at the 12th fret, or about double that of a steel-string. If it's a lot higher than that, either the saddle is too tall, the bridge has started to lift (check for a gap under the back edge), the top is pulling up (sight across the guitar sideways and look at the angle of the bridge/body join relative to the edge of the guitar), or the neck joint has shifted - almost always due to wood shrinkage. If the saddle sticks up more than about 2mm above the bridge itself, it can possibly be lowered - but not to less than about 1mm above.