Questions on low wattage valve amps (Marshall Class 5, Origin, etc)

Yorkie

Hi,
Since getting the little Marshall CODE 25 box to practice with the resident drummer (wife), I have been bitten by the Marshall bug. I have been considering stereo Marshalls (valvestate s80 and others) for my bedroom, but I am not sure I will be able to find one in good condition (or any condition). I have also tried the new MGs but the earth didn't move. So I am now considering a range of options. One of the amps that has captured my attention is the Marshall Class 5. I like it very much, but I have never used valves before and I have a set of questions. 

- I've read that they can be played quietly (0.1W). How quiet is it really? Clean without disturbing housemates, overdriven without disturbing housemates, or overdriven without disturbing neighbours? 
- At 0.1W... does it mean it draws 0.1W of power? I've read that the class A amp is inefficient and lots of power goes away as heat.
- Do you think the Class 5 would make a good pedal platform? I love my pedals.
- How frequently would I have to change the valves? 
- I've read that it has three valves. Would I have to change them all at the same time? How expensive (ballpark) would that be?

Thanks!
Jon

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EDIT: I'm summarising the things I've learned from the discussion here, to save you time in case you have landed on this thread from a search engine:

- I shall not buy anything valve without trying it first. 

- Having an effects loop is a good thing if your valve amp hasn’t got a master volume. Little amp box thingy. 

- Home use: 1W is very loud, 0.5W still very loud but maybe Ok. Master volume needed to tame anything over 0.1W probably. 

- Pedals help get grit at lower volumes. 

- Valves are more resistant than they look, may last for five years. Single power valve makes life easier for replacements. 

- Not keen on Bonamassa. 

ecc83

If you take the Celestion V30 as a standard (because almost everyone has one or has heard one) 100dB/W/mtr speaker 0.1W will produce 90dB SPL at a mtr. That is louder than most FSTellies will go so you could upset people!

But, smaller speakers tend to be less sensitive and an 8" would probably only deliver 80dB SPL, about the distortion point of a TV.

No guitar amp is TRULY class A and not many valve hi fi amps either! Don't sweat it, they are all very inefficient.

Valve life? I can only speak for the HT-5 (class AB fixed bias) and say you would be unlucky NOT to get five years out of a set of valves. But! In the present climate I would stash a couple of 12BH7s away!

Dave.

paulnb57

I like my Origin 20 head but its a pretty clean amp unless you run it near flat out with the boost engaged
At its lowest power setting it can get quite loud…..
I think its a great pedal platform

S56035

paulnb57 said:

I like my Origin 20 head but its a pretty clean amp unless you run it near flat out with the boost engaged
At its lowest power setting it can get quite loud…..
I think its a great pedal platform

Basically the same view as me. Too loud to push into much overdrive even in low power mode. I attenuate instead.

Dave_Mc

I haven't tried the class 5 but most of the 5-watters don't have that much clean headroom for pedals. Maybe something based on a Fender champ would do it, but most of them are more aimed at distortion.

The lower wattage settings don't always sound that good.

Unless you're cranking it a lot the tubes should last years- though you can always be unlucky. You don't have to change them all at once, on a single-ender like that you can change them individually. Also the preamp tubes are even more unlikely to need to be changed. You can also usually change tubes yourself on a single-ender, as they don't need to be biased.

Full wattage cranked is going to be way too loud for most home settings.

Don't get me wrong, I do quite like low wattage amps for certain things, but they're kind of sold as the solution to "cranked up bedroom tones" and they're really not. Unless they have a really low wattage setting. And sound good at that setting. Or you're willing to get an expensive attenuator.

paulnb57

I think for your situation I would do what I do, run a clean amp and get your sounds with pedals 

Alex2678

If you’re after a Marshall that can give you quiet overdriven sounds or can be clean enough to take your pedals depending on what your mood is, get a DSL with a master volume. I’ve had the DSL5C and the DSL40C and loved them both 

ICBM

The Class 5 is an excellent platform for completely stripping out the amp circuit and building something good in the nice-looking cabinet...

The Origin 5 seems to be almost universally hated too, although I haven’t tried one - but I disliked the Origin 20 even in the high-power mode and found the lower ones unusable.

The smaller DSLs - new ones, not the older DSL201/401 - seem pretty decent though.

Dave_Mc

paulnb57 said:

I think for your situation I would do what I do, run a clean amp and get your sounds with pedals 

That's worth considering... once you get to that point, though, you don't necessarily need it to be low wattage, so you have a ton of options. And at that point you can also consider things with a decent master volume, in case you prefer it to pedals, too (since you can still use pedals with a higher gain amp).

The only real problems with that being that they tend to be more expensive, and also usually require a rebias when changing the power valves (plus revalving will be more expensive as you need more and more expensive valves (the power valves, anyway)). 

ICBM said:

The Class 5 is an excellent platform for completely stripping out the amp circuit and building something good in the nice-looking cabinet...

The Origin 5 seems to be almost universally hated too, although I haven’t tried one - but I disliked the Origin 20 even in the high-power mode and found the lower ones unusable.

The smaller DSLs - new ones, not the older DSL201/401 - seem pretty decent though.

Not to derail the thread, but since this is kind of relevant to my interests too (and might help @Yorkie too... that's my excuse at least, and I'm sticking to it!)... what would you say is the best Marshall for low volume/home playing for a range of tones from classic lower gain tones (including cleans) to modern high gain? DSL? JVM? And would it sound different enough from my Laney GH50L to be worthwhile?

andy_k

Class 5 amps seem to be universally hated for some, who I think have very high expectations.
Shame really, they are ( or were ) a great introduction the old school Marshall sound.
The problem seems to be, people equate wattage with sound, and this is very wrong, the Class 5, at 5 watts is easily loud enough to gig with, and probably can keep up with the loudest drummers, with some caveats.
The circuit is very basic, and has no real tone shaping that can adjust for the valve distortion at high volumes, you simply get what it is.
Check out the Bonamassa launch vid at Ronnie Scotts, to see what happens, and there is another early Andertons vid of a single Class 5 in an empty warehouse, as extreme examples.
I have plenty of experience with them, I own 4, 2 stock ones-combo and head, and 2 Rat modded ones, combo and head again.
The Rat mods have switched bias, a more tuned tone stack, and a power scaled master volume, plus effects loop, so they kind of improve on the basic 4 knob model, and make it much more flexible for home use, I like them a lot.
I also like to run a stock C5 head through a Weber attenuator into a 4 x 12, with G75s, and the clean sound is pretty amazing, and a perfect pedal platform, missing an fx loop though.
I know you like the Code 25, but be careful it doesn't raise your expectations of a Class 5, very different experience indeed.
As an example, I ran my 50 watt JCM900 Mk3 ( the early one, basically an 800 with mods ) through a Marshall powerbrake at it's highest setting (virtually silent ) into a Class 5 cab ( single 10 inch open back speaker ), with all knobs set half way, and the sound was amazing, and still slightly too loud for my small flat.
The secret here, is that the amp is designed for a very specific use, with the tones voiced to be ideal at half way, ie, equal amounts of cut and boost, and with volume at half way, there is room to clean up, or go louder.
I think the 50 watt version was built because the stock 100 was just too loud, this style of amp needs the output valves to be doing a lot of the work, and in the 90s, the very gainy sound became popular, which is why people started to add diode clipping to the front end of their 800s, and the earlier JMP / plexi style amps. The quest for crunch.
Cut back to the Class 5, and people see a cute retro looking 5 watt combo, and expect all that in this small package.
If you can pick one up for around £200, (you can) you will see what the fuss is all about, but don't expect miracles, and learn to enjoy it for what it is, a baby plexi, which can sound great on it's own - if you can get it in the sweet spot ( you can't ), or a good pedal platform-with some limitations ( no fx loop ).
If you get brave, you can start to add the features you want, if you can find someone willing to do the work, or as a last resort, they do make nice bits of furniture.

Gassage

The Class 5 is simply cheap and boxy sounding. A Cornell Plexi 7 12" is where you need to be.

Or a TK Gremlin. Or a Laney Cub. Or a Pro Jr.

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

Not to derail the thread, but since this is kind of relevant to my interests too (and might help @Yorkie too... that's my excuse at least, and I'm sticking to it!)... what would you say is the best Marshall for low volume/home playing for a range of tones from classic lower gain tones (including cleans) to modern high gain? DSL? JVM? And would it sound different enough from my Laney GH50L to be worthwhile?

JVM205C. Yes really .

In my opinion, it sounds much better than the Laney... although that's subjective I know!

Gassage

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

Not to derail the thread, but since this is kind of relevant to my interests too (and might help @Yorkie too... that's my excuse at least, and I'm sticking to it!)... what would you say is the best Marshall for low volume/home playing for a range of tones from classic lower gain tones (including cleans) to modern high gain? DSL? JVM? And would it sound different enough from my Laney GH50L to be worthwhile?

JVM205C. Yes really .

In my opinion, it sounds much better than the Laney... although that's subjective I know!

Totally agree. The JVM is amazing at low vols.

Dave_Mc

Thanks @ICBM and @Gassage I've got speaker cabs, so I'd be getting one of the heads (if I don't chicken out, that is)- I seem to remember trying the 410 years ago and thinking it was pretty nice, but I thought the lower gain tones were better. That being said, I would guess my ear for tone has changed a bit (plus I use od pedals as boosts now) so my feeling is it would suit pretty well. I always sort of get the feeling that the Laney is "more or less" a hot-rodded Marshall, but the "more or less" thing is kind making me wonder if I shouldn't just bite the bullet and get an actual Marshall, you know?

How does the 410 compare? I think Thomann has the 410 head for less than the 210 head goes for here- I don't need 12 (!) channels for switching between, but (from reading the manual) it looks like the 410 has quite a bit more channels aimed at the type of tones I would like. That being said, if the 210 sounds better...

Also, am I right in thinking there's a bit of channel switching delay (or did they fix that)? And also I think there's a mosfet in the resonance circuit? (Don't think I'm that worried about that, just wondering... )

ICBM

I think the 205 sounds better, personally - but I'm more of a clean/low-to-medium-crunch player, so the 410 might suit you more. The 410 Satriani version is good, but I don't like the standard model as much (even though I always want reverb). The standard model has a bit more gain too. I particularly like the 205C since it comes with my favourite modern Marshall speaker combination, the Heritage/Vintage pair (basically a G12M-70 and a V30, but they don't sound the same as the stock versions).

The GH50 is indeed a hot-rodded Marshall 2203 circuit, but to me they've never sounded quite 'right' - Laneys have often been basically Marshall copies, but for various reasons they don't sound the same.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

I think the 205 sounds better, personally - but I'm more of a clean/low-to-medium-crunch player, so the 410 might suit you more. The 410 Satriani version is good, but I don't like the standard model as much (even though I always want reverb). The standard model has a bit more gain too. I particularly like the 205C since it comes with my favourite modern Marshall speaker combination, the Heritage/Vintage pair (basically a G12M-70 and a V30, but they don't sound the same as the stock versions).

The GH50 is indeed a hot-rodded Marshall 2203 circuit, but to me they've never sounded quite 'right' - Laneys have often been basically Marshall copies, but for various reasons they don't sound the same.

Thanks Actually what worried me about the 205 (looking at the manual and the block diagram that I've managed to find) is that it seemed to have fewer options for lower gain tones than the 410! It doesn't seem to have the plexi mode, for example (actually, now I look at it more closely- the block diagram is saying it doesn't, but the manual is saying it does... so I'm not sure, lol. But then if the manual is right then it doesn't seem to have an 800 setting, just a hot-rodded 800 setting). At the same time, if you mainly play lower gain stuff and like the 205 better...

I know word on the net was always that the Satriani version was the best, but I never got round to trying one. Not sure why they didn't just keep it, but I'm guessing there's some reason behind that to do with the fact it used to be a signature or something like that.

What's a G12M-70? I don't think I've ever come across it before.

Just out of interest, does the 50 watt version sound better?

And yeah, I've heard that about the Laney from several people online whose opinions I trust. I've never tried them head to head, so I don't know... but I definitely wonder! 

Redlester

OP I'd have a look at the DSL5C- I've had one for ages and it's a very adaptable amp. You can get some bargains second hand too. 

Gassage

@Dave_Mc totally agree with @icbm re 205 v 4** - it’s really sweet and it’s the first Marshall I’ve ever bonded with

here it is in stereo with a 1965 Deluxe at house clean vols

https://youtu.be/-J2aA0h8xq8

TTBZ

@Dave_Mc I prefer the JVM to the GH as well. The GH is great but I always found mine too "stiff" in feel without a boost and a bit grainy sounding for lack of a better description. And definitely needed to be loud to sound it's best. I also didn't love the Laney midrange frequency, it seems to be centred more on the low mids rather than the classic Marshall upper mid thing. I got the best out of it with V30s to help accentuate the mids a bit more.

Most people prefer the 100w 4 channel JVMs (mostly for OD1 Orange mode I assume) but hearing them side to side I liked the 205H the best and the OD orange sounds great to me. Generally I prefer the more midrangey sound (to my ears) of 50w amps.

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

What's a G12M-70? I don't think I've ever come across it before.

It's an old model from the early 80s, not highly-regarded because it can sound a bit 'soft' and dull. The Marshall Heritage appears to be based on it, but like their Vintage which is quite a bit different-sounding from a stock V30, it doesn't sound like the old 70. Oddly, I usually dislike Marshall's custom-model Celestions, but these two are really good, and the combination is even better - the softer Heritage takes away the harshness from the V30, and the V30 adds the bite the Heritage lacks, but in a way that seems to be more than the sum of the parts.

I've got the cabinet from an old TSL122 combo which I scrapped for parts - I was going to sell the speakers, but they sound so good together, and the ex-combo cabinet is so light and convenient (open back, of course) that I've decided to keep it. (Or unless someone makes me a *very* good offer .)

TTBZ said:

The GH is great but I always found mine too "stiff" in feel without a boost and a bit grainy sounding for lack of a better description. And definitely needed to be loud to sound it's best. I also didn't love the Laney midrange frequency, it seems to be centred more on the low mids rather than the classic Marshall upper mid thing.

This, exactly - all the Laneys that are based on Marshall circuits seem to be like this... tighter, darker/lower-middy, and grainier. That's also why I think the Catalinbread DLS pedal doesn't sound like a MIAB, it's a LIAB .

andy_k

Interesting how quickly the conversation turns to 100 watt, 4 channel JVM's when discussing the 'best' Marshall tones.
Not quite what the OP is asking though is it?
More options = more channels = more valves = more money.
Class 5 plus pedals of choice is definitely in the OP's wheelhouse, but I agree, larger more fully specced models might be better in the long run.
Personally, I think something in the SC range of 20 watt heads, plus a choice of cabs and a good attenuator would be the ideal route, probably a plexi voiced one, rather than a jubilee  / 800 voiced one. 
I'm not aiming for a particular type of dirt or distorted tone myself, just something with a nice tone to start with, which will involve some power tube saturation.
Pretty hard to get really, at low volumes, with tubes.