Questions on low wattage valve amps (Marshall Class 5, Origin, etc)

ICBM · April 2022

andy_k said:

Interesting how quickly the conversation turns to 100 watt, 4 channel JVM's when discussing the 'best' Marshall tones.

...

Pretty hard to get really, at low volumes, with tubes.

This, because that.

To me the classic Marshall sound is something like Hendrix, Kossoff etc - it's a *big* sound with a lot of bass in it, even though it also has a lot of top-end bite and so might be thought of as a 'bright' sound... it isn't a treble-only sound at all. It's also not *that* distorted - to me it's almost more like a clean sound with an overdriven edge to it. This is what I think the mistake Marshall make with a lot of their modern amps, even the bigger ones - they make them too bright, too buzzy and too thin. The JVM was the first of the modern channel-switching/higher-gain Marshalls where they got it right in my opinion.

I don't think any of the smaller Marshalls - not even the 20W ones - really get that bottom-end roar *and* the top-end bite, and these little 5W single-ended ones just have no chance. You can actually get a better 'big Marshall' sound from a modeller or a solid-state amp at low volume in my opinion.

The SV20H was pretty good with the guitar straight in, but when pushed hard with pedals it just got very overcompressed, mushy and weirdly 'one-note' sounding, where it seemed to narrow down to almost a single frequency which dominated the whole sound. The big ones don't do that.

Yorkie · April 2022

ecc83 said:

Valve life? I can only speak for the HT-5 (class AB fixed bias) and say you would be unlucky NOT to get five years out of a set of valves. But! In the present climate I would stash a couple of 12BH7s away!

That's something that had me worried, but maybe it shouldn't have!

Yorkie · April 2022

paulnb57 said:

I like my Origin 20 head but its a pretty clean amp unless you run it near flat out with the boost engaged
At its lowest power setting it can get quite loud…..
I think its a great pedal platform

The Origin 20 attenuates the output to 0.5W – so it's clear that I'd need to go further down... 0.1W if possible, I guess.

Yorkie · April 2022

Dave_Mc said:
Unless you're cranking it a lot the tubes should last years- though you can always be unlucky. You don't have to change them all at once, on a single-ender like that you can change them individually. Also the preamp tubes are even more unlikely to need to be changed. You can also usually change tubes yourself on a single-ender, as they don't need to be biased.

That sounds reasonable, thanks.

Yorkie · April 2022

Alex2678 said:

If you’re after a Marshall that can give you quiet overdriven sounds or can be clean enough to take your pedals depending on what your mood is, get a DSL with a master volume. I’ve had the DSL5C and the DSL40C and loved them both

My issue with that is that the CODE 25 can model DSL preamps and their voice is not exactly what I'm after. Still, I would probably pull the trigger on a cheap DSL at this point. I had wanted something stereo, but somebody suggested a cab sim/modeller as a cheaper route to scratching my stereo itch and I will do that (in due time).

Yorkie · April 2022

Gassage said:

The Class 5 is simply cheap and boxy sounding. A Cornell Plexi 7 12" is where you need to be.

Or a TK Gremlin. Or a Laney Cub. Or a Pro Jr.

That's all well above my pay grade.

Yorkie · April 2022

andy_k said:

Class 5 amps seem to be universally hated for some, who I think have very high expectations.
Shame really, they are ( or were ) a great introduction the old school Marshall sound.
The problem seems to be, people equate wattage with sound, and this is very wrong, the Class 5, at 5 watts is easily loud enough to gig with, and probably can keep up with the loudest drummers, with some caveats.
The circuit is very basic, and has no real tone shaping that can adjust for the valve distortion at high volumes, you simply get what it is.
Check out the Bonamassa launch vid at Ronnie Scotts, to see what happens, and there is another early Andertons vid of a single Class 5 in an empty warehouse, as extreme examples.
I have plenty of experience with them, I own 4, 2 stock ones-combo and head, and 2 Rat modded ones, combo and head again.
The Rat mods have switched bias, a more tuned tone stack, and a power scaled master volume, plus effects loop, so they kind of improve on the basic 4 knob model, and make it much more flexible for home use, I like them a lot.
I also like to run a stock C5 head through a Weber attenuator into a 4 x 12, with G75s, and the clean sound is pretty amazing, and a perfect pedal platform, missing an fx loop though.
I know you like the Code 25, but be careful it doesn't raise your expectations of a Class 5, very different experience indeed.
As an example, I ran my 50 watt JCM900 Mk3 ( the early one, basically an 800 with mods ) through a Marshall powerbrake at it's highest setting (virtually silent ) into a Class 5 cab ( single 10 inch open back speaker ), with all knobs set half way, and the sound was amazing, and still slightly too loud for my small flat.
The secret here, is that the amp is designed for a very specific use, with the tones voiced to be ideal at half way, ie, equal amounts of cut and boost, and with volume at half way, there is room to clean up, or go louder.
I think the 50 watt version was built because the stock 100 was just too loud, this style of amp needs the output valves to be doing a lot of the work, and in the 90s, the very gainy sound became popular, which is why people started to add diode clipping to the front end of their 800s, and the earlier JMP / plexi style amps. The quest for crunch.
Cut back to the Class 5, and people see a cute retro looking 5 watt combo, and expect all that in this small package.
If you can pick one up for around £200, (you can) you will see what the fuss is all about, but don't expect miracles, and learn to enjoy it for what it is, a baby plexi, which can sound great on it's own - if you can get it in the sweet spot ( you can't ), or a good pedal platform-with some limitations ( no fx loop ).
If you get brave, you can start to add the features you want, if you can find someone willing to do the work, or as a last resort, they do make nice bits of furniture.

A superb message, thanks. Baby plexi (I've read the manual too

) might be the sound I've been chasing all this time.

£200 almost falls within my budget, depending on how much I can get for my Katana 50.

Yorkie · April 2022

Redlester said:

OP I'd have a look at the DSL5C- I've had one for ages and it's a very adaptable amp. You can get some bargains second hand too.

5C or 5CR? Did they change something apart from adding the reverb?

Yorkie · April 2022

andy_k said:

Interesting how quickly the conversation turns to 100 watt, 4 channel JVM's when discussing the 'best' Marshall tones.
Not quite what the OP is asking though is it?
More options = more channels = more valves = more money.
Class 5 plus pedals of choice is definitely in the OP's wheelhouse, but I agree, larger more fully specced models might be better in the long run.
Personally, I think something in the SC range of 20 watt heads, plus a choice of cabs and a good attenuator would be the ideal route, probably a plexi voiced one, rather than a jubilee / 800 voiced one.
I'm not aiming for a particular type of dirt or distorted tone myself, just something with a nice tone to start with, which will involve some power tube saturation.
Pretty hard to get really, at low volumes, with tubes.

My only worry is if I will be able to use the Class 5 on low power mode without disturbing the neighbours. Wife is OK with an hour of power chords every day, but I love my neighbours and don't want to create a problem!

Jon

ICBM · April 2022

For me the Class 5 sounds nothing like a baby plexi - it's all wrong, the circuit is completely different and in particular the tone stack is in the wrong place (far too early in the signal path, before the distortion) which is a very odd choice for a Marshall and is why the tone controls don't do much when it's overdriven. In fact, there are no controls for the second and third gain stages at all, they're basically wide open - it's a very strange amp.

If they really wanted to make a baby plexi they could have done it with the same number of valves and the same power output, but not completely redesigned to something unlike any other Marshall...

S56035 · April 2022

Yorkie said:

paulnb57 said:

I like my Origin 20 head but its a pretty clean amp unless you run it near flat out with the boost engaged
At its lowest power setting it can get quite loud…..
I think its a great pedal platform

The Origin 20 attenuates the output to 0.5W – so it's clear that I'd need to go further down... 0.1W if possible, I guess.

I also have a Black Star HT5R which goes down to 0.1. I live in an 80s semi and you'd definitely hear next door anywhere about 70% full volume. Gives a decent broken up tone like that though.

Yorkie · April 2022

S56035 said:

Yorkie said:

paulnb57 said:

I like my Origin 20 head but its a pretty clean amp unless you run it near flat out with the boost engaged
At its lowest power setting it can get quite loud…..
I think its a great pedal platform

The Origin 20 attenuates the output to 0.5W – so it's clear that I'd need to go further down... 0.1W if possible, I guess.

I also have a Black Star HT5R which goes down to 0.1. I live in an 80s semi and you'd definitely hear next door anywhere about 70% full volume. Gives a decent broken up tone like that though.

Just remembered that many Class 5 amps have headphones out! Presumably that’ll deactivate the speaker too.

Also, if I hit the front with a booster, I’d be able to get preamp overdrive at lower volumes right?

S56035 · April 2022

Never used the headphone out but I've heard it's supposed to be good. I'm not sure about preamp overdrive, not technical enough to know the difference between than power amp overdrive etc i'm afraid.

Alex2678 · April 2022

Yorkie said:

Alex2678 said:

If you’re after a Marshall that can give you quiet overdriven sounds or can be clean enough to take your pedals depending on what your mood is, get a DSL with a master volume. I’ve had the DSL5C and the DSL40C and loved them both

My issue with that is that the CODE 25 can model DSL preamps and their voice is not exactly what I'm after. Still, I would probably pull the trigger on a cheap DSL at this point. I had wanted something stereo, but somebody suggested a cab sim/modeller as a cheaper route to scratching my stereo itch and I will do that (in due time).

Suppose it depends how well it’s modelled, and which channel. The classic gain was my favourite

Yorkie · April 2022

Alex2678 said:

Yorkie said:

Alex2678 said:

If you’re after a Marshall that can give you quiet overdriven sounds or can be clean enough to take your pedals depending on what your mood is, get a DSL with a master volume. I’ve had the DSL5C and the DSL40C and loved them both

My issue with that is that the CODE 25 can model DSL preamps and their voice is not exactly what I'm after. Still, I would probably pull the trigger on a cheap DSL at this point. I had wanted something stereo, but somebody suggested a cab sim/modeller as a cheaper route to scratching my stereo itch and I will do that (in due time).

Suppose it depends how well it’s modelled, and which channel. The classic gain was my favourite

Does it do plexi style crunchies?

Alex2678 · April 2022

Yorkie said:
Does it do plexi style crunchies?

I’ve never played a real plexi but I was happy with the sound I was getting for playing Cream songs

Yorkie · April 2022

Alex2678 said:

Yorkie said:
Does it do plexi style crunchies?

I’ve never played a real plexi but I was happy with the sound I was getting for playing Cream songs

Great to hear, I’ll watch a few videos tomorrow.

Dave_Mc · April 2022

@Gassage Brilliant, thanks for that great video

Image: /plugins/EmojiExtender/emoji/fb/1.gif

What speakers are you playing through there?

@TTBZ Thanks, that's exactly how I'd describe my Laney as sounding, too- don't get me wrong, I do really like it, but I've heard enough people who know what they're talking about say, "I know the circuit is a Marshall, but it still doesn't sound the same" to be starting to believe it, lol.

@ICBM Thanks for the info about the speaker. I need more speakers like I need a hole in the head, lol- I take it it sounds good with more standard speakers? I've got most of the standard Celestions lying around, and I'm liking the Tayden Great Brit/High Brit (which I think is kind of like their G12H30 and higher-wattage G12M) best with my Laney I think, I'm guessing I should be able to get something out of all of those which should sound good?

andy_k said:

Interesting how quickly the conversation turns to 100 watt, 4 channel JVM's when discussing the 'best' Marshall tones.

To be fair to the others, that was entirely my fault. A shameless derail on my part, sorry

Dave_Mc · April 2022

ICBM said:
This, because that.

To me the classic Marshall sound is something like Hendrix, Kossoff etc - it's a *big* sound with a lot of bass in it, even though it also has a lot of top-end bite and so might be thought of as a 'bright' sound... it isn't a treble-only sound at all. It's also not *that* distorted - to me it's almost more like a clean sound with an overdriven edge to it. This is what I think the mistake Marshall make with a lot of their modern amps, even the bigger ones - they make them too bright, too buzzy and too thin. The JVM was the first of the modern channel-switching/higher-gain Marshalls where they got it right in my opinion.

Would you say the newer DSLs suffer from that, too? I've only tried the older DSLs, and that was my problem with them, really. They weren't bad, but a bit thin-sounding at the kind of volumes I'd be using them at.

Yorkie said:

Dave_Mc said:
Unless you're cranking it a lot the tubes should last years- though you can always be unlucky. You don't have to change them all at once, on a single-ender like that you can change them individually. Also the preamp tubes are even more unlikely to need to be changed. You can also usually change tubes yourself on a single-ender, as they don't need to be biased.

That sounds reasonable, thanks.

No worries

Just to be clear- the higher wattage, more expensive amps (apart from the newish 20 watt Studio Plexi and JCM800, which I think are cathode-biased) probably will need to be biased.

Yorkie said:
Also, if I hit the front with a booster, I’d be able to get preamp overdrive at lower volumes right?

Probably, though there's probably a limit to how much you're going to get from a low gain amp. It also might not be as controllable as you'd like (in terms of volume, I mean). It's the kind of thing I keep meaning to try, and keep forgetting to!

Gassage · April 2022

Dave_Mc said:

@Gassage Brilliant, thanks for that great video What speakers are you playing through there?

@TTBZ Thanks, that's exactly how I'd describe my Laney as sounding, too- don't get me wrong, I do really like it, but I've heard enough people who know what they're talking about say, "I know the circuit is a Marshall, but it still doesn't sound the same" to be starting to believe it, lol.

@ICBM Thanks for the info about the speaker. I need more speakers like I need a hole in the head, lol- I take it it sounds good with more standard speakers? I've got most of the standard Celestions lying around, and I'm liking the Tayden Great Brit/High Brit (which I think is kind of like their G12H30 and higher-wattage G12M) best with my Laney I think, I'm guessing I should be able to get something out of all of those which should sound good?

andy_k said:

Interesting how quickly the conversation turns to 100 watt, 4 channel JVM's when discussing the 'best' Marshall tones.
To be fair to the others, that was entirely my fault. A shameless derail on my part, sorry

G12T-75

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Questions on low wattage valve amps (Marshall Class 5, Origin, etc)

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