Really REALLY great small amps for home use?

ThePrettyDamned

Android phone wall of text! Apologies, sometimes it does that...

fretmeister

Cheap is such a crap word.

£600 for an amp is not a small amount of money, but the quality of the amp decides whether it is cheap or expensive, or even just right.

£50,000 for a new Ferrari would be cheap as the quality of product for the money would be clear. The fact that £50K is a shit load of dosh does not make it an expensive choice.

The most expensive instrument I ever owned was a Zon Hyperbass. It was a metric shitload of dosh... and I never once thought it was over-priced.

On the other hand 90% of tubescreamer type pedals are a fekking rip off. Even at £40.

Voxman

richardhomer said:

Voxman;342924" said:

Martin, why are you thinking of packing it in?  

Probably because it's bloody tough making a living at it!

I can totally understand that - it can be terribly frustrating making a quality product and making a profit on it in a heavily mass produced environment fighting big names, who have huge research, marketing and distribution budgets.

I can see why you might have thought Martin was being over-sensitive - I get accused of the same thing - but I can fully understand his robust defence of his product and it's pricing.

And to be fair so can I, and he's right to do so

I am not levelling this at you - so please don't take offence - but unless something has 'Apple', 'Audi' or 'BMW' written on it these days, most people seem to think it's too dear....

Exactly the point I was making re 'name' amps.  And hence why its so tough in a niche market.

Voxman

fretmeister said:

Cheap is such a crap word.

I agree its very emotive if you call something 'cheap' as its normally with derogatory overtones.  However, when you're saying something is NOT cheap, that's completely different and is simply a realistic comparison with mass market pricing - nothing whatsoever to do with suggesting quality isn't top notch.   

£600 for an amp is not a small amount of money, but the quality of the amp decides whether it is cheap or expensive, or even just right.

Absolutely - but value is perceived. Any item is only 'worth' what a buyer is willing to pay for it regardless of quality. For most buyers, its a balance between budget and whether they perceive that paying that bit more provides value to them.  

£50,000 for a new Ferrari would be cheap as the quality of product for the money would be clear. The fact that £50K is a shit load of dosh does not make it an expensive choice.

It is an expensive choice if you don't have that budget, regardless of quality.  And if you would be just as happy (or even happier) with a car at half the price that was cheaper to run, insure, and if there were few occasions where you would really benefit from the extra performance of a Ferrari, then that wouldn't represent good value to you.  

The most expensive instrument I ever owned was a Zon Hyperbass. It was a metric shitload of dosh... and I never once thought it was over-priced.

And I NEVER said that the Bantam was 'over-priced' - saying something is 'not cheap' is NOT the same thing at all.  I think we all understand that if you want top quality, you must expect to pay a premium for it.  However, its whether and how much an individual would value and appreciate that top quality.  And that's a very difficult balancing act for smaller boutique amp makers who KNOW their products are top notch, but who can struggle to find enough buyers that appreciate that, and are willing to pay a sufficient premium for that quality so that its still profitable but realistically priced when looking at the market.

The other conundrum is considering which market you're in - although you may be in the boutique amp market, if you are competing with trying to win customers from the mass produced market, then your pricing can't be immune to and must 'compromise' sufficiently with mass pricing if you're to have a realistic chance of making sufficient sales.  And marketing is all important here, to help change peoples perceptions and to encourage an increase in what they are willing to pay by 'selling' the quality and service.

And service, warranty, back-up/comeback is another problem - big name amps have the infrastructure to deal with this (albeit with various level of ease/customer satisfaction etc). That's much harder to deal with when you're a small boutique firm vbased in Derbyshire.   Is the amp under warranty? If so how easy would getting the amp serviced/repaired be if you're a long way from Derbyshire?   Martin indicated that he might pack it in. If he did, and there were any problems with the amp, where would buyers stand?  Not an easy conundrum to say the least and these types of themes can al impact on buyer confidence and willingness to part with their dosh, regardless of how good the product is.  

Even the big name amp manufacturers struggle with balancing pricing, quality, and profitability in an ever more competitive market, and they have to make continually difficult comprises to try and give customers what they want but at a price they are willing to pay.  .  

On the other hand 90% of tubescreamer type pedals are a fekking rip off. Even at £40.

Not quite sure what you mean here other than perhaps you mean some are genuinely over-priced and not much better than cheaper units?  I bought a Behringer to800 tube overdrive new for £20 - and it really is surprisingly good! I'm sure there are better pedals out there at £100, but for me it does the job and the extra money just isn't worth it.  

richardhomer

Wow @Voxman - I won't be commenting on anything else you post.... I really don't want to have to read your colour-code analysis of anything else. Hopefully the one you do on this one will be fairly short....

RaymondLin

A part of the problem I am sure is that a lot of people don't know Martin exists....truth be told, I never until today.  During my search for a small amp (head) I didn't come across his product.  Advertising is so important, as are distributor.  I did the normal thread on forums for advice, I did look at all amps within spec in sites such as PMT, Andertons, GuitarGuitar and see what comes up.  If you are like me, you just buy it through these shops and not direct from a builder. 

 

Having knowing something like this exists now, I would say to buy it, I'd like not only good videos and demo, recommendations from users as well.  It doesn't need to be a big name guitarist, just people here would suffice really.

ThePrettyDamned

RaymondLin said:

A part of the problem I am sure is that a lot of people don't know Martin exists....truth be told, I never until today.  During my search for a small amp (head) I didn't come across his product.  Advertising is so important, as are distributor.  I did the normal thread on forums for advice, I did look at all amps within spec in sites such as PMT, Andertons, GuitarGuitar and see what comes up.  If you are like me, you just buy it through these shops and not direct from a builder. 

 

Having knowing something like this exists now, I would say to buy it, I'd like not only good videos and demo, recommendations from users as well.  It doesn't need to be a big name guitarist, just people here would suffice really.

Exactly.  The problem is, advertising is really expensive.  Which pushes the costs of the product up - just look at most *big name* boutique products - they're not necessarily selling at an over inflated margin, but they have to cover advertising costs and demo fees to big name youtubers.

It's not just Martin, of course.  There are several builders in the UK but you'd need to look hard to find them, or know where to look.  It's not an inferior product you're buying for the most part, but I'd rather go for a reputable dealer (such as Martin) to guarantee me quality of service in future, rather than the even cheaper 'retirement hobby' folk, who build quality kit but don't need to make a living off it (and thus might have not so great service). 

Voxman

richardhomer said:

Wow @Voxman - I won't be commenting on anything else you post.... I really don't want to have to read your colour-code analysis of anything else. Hopefully the one you do on this one will be fairly short....

LOL - sorry, old habit...was just trying to make it easier to read & follow! 

Voxman

UNCANNY!! Re the demo's, the guys playing all my classic rock stuff!! LOL

dindude;342445" said:

Maybe one of these. A few pedals and your golden.

http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n505/dindude/34962c6cd3480ac2e651fdb4223ff016_zps6136593b.jpg



Here's the spiel http://www.the-valve.com/105_combo.html

martinw

Voxman said:

Please read carefully what I wrote again.......

No, it's ok, I do understand you. I just don't agree with you

Voxman said:

And service, warranty, back-up/comeback is another problem - big name amps have the infrastructure to deal with this (albeit with various level of ease/customer satisfaction etc). That's much harder to deal with when you're a small boutique firm vbased in Derbyshire.   Is the amp under warranty? If so how easy would getting the amp serviced/repaired be if you're a long way from Derbyshire?   Martin indicated that he might pack it in. If he did, and there were any problems with the amp, where would buyers stand?  Not an easy conundrum to say the least and these types of themes can al impact on buyer confidence and willingness to part with their dosh, regardless of how good the product is.  

No different than buying an amp mail order from anywhere else surely? It still has to go back to the retailer, with whom you have a contract, for warranty repair. I don't get very much warranty work but will always stand behind my work 100%, and if that means facilitating the owner to take the amp to a closer reputable tech and me paying them, then I'd do that.

It's never happened.

My amps are all fairly simple, and clearly laid out, so any decent tech will be able to work on them and procure parts long after I'm gone.

If I do decide to end the business, it won't affect aftersales at all. Of course, you'd have to trust me on that, but then I have over 7 years of trading to stand behind.

And again, any retailer on manufacturer can go bust or cease trading, so it's hardly a problem specific to smaller firms.

richardhomer said:

Voxman;342924" said:

Martin, why are you thinking of packing it in?  

Probably because it's bloody tough making a living at it!

Yup!

I can see why you might have thought Martin was being over-sensitive - I get accused of the same thing - but I can fully understand his robust defence of his product and it's pricing.

Thank you

musteatbrain

Martin makes great amps and for a handwired amp with decent parts, they are cheap. I don't know how you can do it cheaper in a small UK based operation, hats off to anyone that can. It would be a massive shame to lose MJW from the dwindling UK list of builders, but I'm pretty sure Martin could make twice what he earns building amps by being in a wedding band. To me this just seems wrong. I can't justify buying anymore of his amps, but if I could I would. Others should. They are great and they are cheap

jonnyburgo

Martin's gear is not expensive for handwired gear using excellent components built here in the good old north. Ive heard one of his amps in the flesh (can't remember which it was now, think it was an 18 watter and it was a beauty) Anybody building stuff knows how much it costs and how much you have to charge to make an (often modest) profit. I make furniture to sell on occasion (as a hobby) and it is damn time consuming. If I can factor in a £15 per hour labour charge and it sells I'm doing OK.

p90fool

Voxman;342188" said:

" That MJW Bantam sounds a smashing little amp!  Had a look on the MJW site and it comes in 1x10" and 1x12" combo flavours as well as the head.  But at £620 for the combo and £495 for the head, it aint cheap  

I think that's quite breathtakingly cheap to be honest.

I paid £750 for a mass produced, Mexican made Fender Princeton earlier this year, a 12w, 1x10 combo.

Don't get me wrong, it's exactly what I wanted and I'm still in love with it, but I entered into the transaction with no illusions that I was being shafted in the wallet for what they know they can get away with.

jonnyburgo

I love the sound of this Palmer Fab 5, switchable to 1/2 watt

RaymondLin

If you are into your gear for a while and have been playing, no doubt Martin's work is attractive.  More so if you are based in the USA I feel, just look how Carol Ann has taken off. 

Made in the USA carries a lot of weight in the market, it is an unofficial stamp of quality really. Whether that is justified is another topic altogether.

Made in England is less so for desirability, unless you are either Marshall or Vox it seems.  I doubt Bogner would have as much success if he had stayed in Germany, even though back then he was doing great work for one off clients. 

Getting your name out really does play a big part of it.  Speaking as a noob, based solely on online demo and people's chatter on forums.  I had pretty much the same criteria as OP. I picked up my Bogner Atma.   Part of the reason is because it is a Bogner, I make no applogies for that, i know their reputation is making good amps and reliable amps and the fact that I got it from a big shop gives confidence from a consumer's point of view.  Fun fact, my brother in law, who has had a Peavey, Marshall, Blackstar etc, has never heard of Bogner.  Even they need more advertisement.

Outside of guitars, there are very very few electronic you buy from a builder, you don't buy a TV or hifi amp or your toaster from a builder so if you are starting out and getting your first amp, getting something electronic made by a guy in his garage does seem like a strange prospect. A really really strange concept.

Also, buying from a shop gives you the usual protection from law, I could've returned the Atma within 2 weeks if I didn't like it, I paid for it with a credit card with added protection (do you take Amex Martin?), I haggled a bit with the cab that I got, also some free cables.  It is hard for a one man band to give you all that, you can say you stand by your work etc til the cow come home, as a consumer, new in the amp market, the shop gives you reassurance, where a builder's word is just builder's word. 

It comes down to more than sounding good or whether it is cheap or not. 

Voxman

Ray, I'm not so convinced re your thoughts re 'made in the USA' as I think made in the UK has enormous weight too - take the (relatively) new kid on the block here - Blackstar.  However, you're reinforcing many of the themes I raised. I don't know the background, but I was just wondering if MJW was closed for a while (there's an open again sign on the website), and if this had any impact on customer support/service?

Re boutique builds generally, I'm delighted that the market is diverse enough for quality boutique gear still to be made.  As evidenced by various posts here, there are clearly folk who not only appreciate it, but who are prepared to buy specialist amps of this type, and who regard them as great value.  It adds diversity, personalisation and quality to a world that would otherwise be dominated totally by 'mass market' manufacturers.  

martinw

Voxman said:

 I don't know the background, but I was just wondering if MJW was closed for a while (there's an open again sign on the website), and if this had any impact on customer support/service?

No, it didn't. I was closed to NEW ORDERS only.

samzadgan

@martinw I hope you're not serious about giving up the business...I have plans to get a low watt head from you mid next year! 

musteatbrain

@voxman I think Blackstar are made in China and checked in the UK...... And who keeps WOWing me? Is it the mysterious forum bully? I can turn you know?

John_A

I build amps as a hobby, I've had cabinets built by Martin as I'm not as clever as he is . I did consider trying to make my hobby in to a part time business and worked out if I spent all day every day building and sold every last one I could make about 50% of what I do in my 'proper job'. I don't know how Martin sells these at the price he does and manages to eat. They are a bargain! We've lost a few great British guitar amp makers over the years, would be a real shame to lose another, I hope it doesn't come to that.