Slow guitar day (a custom build)

Tannin

Re an English soundboard, I was going to ask about that. It sounds as though the options are pretty limited. 

Timeframe for this one? Paul works very slowly. He does one or two a year, three at very most. (He also does a lot of other work, from repairs and rebuilds to sculptures and music boxes.) He has finished the body of the one in front of me in his queue, hasn't done the neck yet. So I guess he'll start mine in earnest later this year and finish early next year. That's fine. He works at his own pace and I have other guitars to play. 

How much difference do rare and exotic woods really make? Well, I reckon not much. Paul is a softly-spoken, easy-going sort of chap and he hasn't really got it in him to be scathing, but if he did I suspect that he would be on this topic. As far as he is concerned, the timbers, so long as they are properly quarter sawn and more-or-less suitable, are not the point. Timbers are for looking at, you get sound from skill and craftsmanship. (He wouldn't say that; I'm putting words into his mouth.)

earwighoney

@Tannin

Thanks for the info.  Seems Huon Pine went the way of Cuban Mahogany of sorts, which also was largely all cut down around 100 years ago, but it grows it pretty quickly whilst Huon Pine doesn't.

Huon Pine seems quite heavy for a soundboard, it's weight at Wood Database is listed at 560kg/m cubed, whilst European Spruce is 405kg/m3.  Huon Pine seems closer to Spanish Cypress which is 535kg/m3, and it could be used to make a flamenco guitar, but I couldn't really see the point considering how rare it is and there are other great woods that would cost a fraction and are sustainable that produce exceptional instruments nonetheless.

Tannin

Cheers @earwighoney (8 months late!)

Yes, Huon Pine is a middle-density timber. Very roughly, we can divide tonewoods up into four groups:

* Top woods are light
* Back and sides woods are medium weight
* Fretboard woods are heavy
* All-rounder woods are light-medium.

Huon Pine is heavier than classic soundboard tonewoods (spruce, cedar etc.) but pretty much the lightest of the "all-rounder" tonewoods (things like mahogany and Blackwood and Koa).

(Once again, as seems to be my habit, I opened this thread to update it just now and discovered a three-parts-finished reply in it.)

Tannin

We have progress!



King Billy Pine top, rosette is Huon Pine, Tiger Myrtle, Blackwood and ebony.






Now for the sides -



These are Blackheart Sassafras. 

Am I starting to get excited? Yes. Is it far too early for that? Yes. When will it be finished? Not sure, I haven't spoken to Paul about that lately but at a guess around about spring (i.e., autumn in the UK). I've been on the waiting list since 2020, a bit longer will do no harm.

(But I'm still getting a bit excited.)

Tannin

More progress! Inside the mould:







The top complete with bracing. Top is King Billy Pine, falcate bracing is King Billy Pine and carbon fibre. The theory of falcate bracing is that it is lighter, stronger, and more evenly distributes the stresses. Whether that makes the result sound better is beyond my ken, but I'm happy to report that the concert-size guitar of Paul's that I own plays very nicely. Better than an otherwise-identical X-braced instrument? No idea.

King Billy Pine is very light and quite stiff along the grain but very flexible (I'd describe it as "floppy" across the grain. (All timbers are weaker across the grain than along it, but King Billy Pine more so than most.) It is a noted tonewood often said to have a rich, mellow sound similar to cedar, but it is mostly used for small instruments, mandolins in particular. How will it respond to employment in a very large jumbo? No idea.



I'm trying to figure out what the bridge plate is made from! It looks a bit like Radiata Pine, which it certainly won't be. For durability reasons, bridge plates are normally something fairly hard (maple is a common choice), and I can't think of a likely-sounding hardish timber which looks like that. (I'll ask next time I see him.)

Soupman

@Tannin there's not many can say they know their guitar inside out. My only knowledge comes via a small mirror when fitting a jack socket!
Judging by the first picture I reckon it'll be heavy with sides that thick......
Looks great - you must be drooling in anticipation 

Tannin

Yes @Soupman - well, not drooling yet, trying to stay calm for awhile longer. Paul works at his own pace so he'll probably have it finished and ready to pick up around about the time I am in in England ordering a Brook  

(This year is going to win a prize as my all-time most expensive. Two new guitars, a trip to Europe, and I just had a tooth implant which should set my dentist up for a comfortable retirement. I cannot possibly go on spending at this rate. But buggerit, no-one lives forever.)

Mellish

@Tannin ; I still say try a Martin OM-28 Re-imagined when you can,or preferably a couple or more to compare. 

I was lucky. They only had one in-store but great tone, low action...
Less volume than a dread? Well maybe, just a bit, but comfort wise much better than a dread playing seated, this being the only way I play.

 

Tannin

I've played OM-28s, @Mellish. Lovely guitars. Back in 2020 I spent a long time cross-playing every interesting guitar in town. (Hobart has four good music shops - 2 new, 2 used and vintage - plus an odd one that occasionally has something nice like an old Gibson, so a pretty fair selection.) In the end, I narrowed it down to three - as it happened all three in the same shop -  and I spent ages deciding which of the three I liked best. The Martin OM-28 and the Maton Messiah were about the same price, the third one (another Maton) was $1000 cheaper, but I had decided to ignore price and just buy the one I liked best. 

I could have taken any one of the three home and been happy. With the Martin, I liked the slightly wider neck (half a millimetre, but enough to notice) and the extra warmth. ("Warmth" seems an insufficient word to describe that rich, subtle tone.) With the Messiah, I liked the balance, the cleaner bass, and the open, slightly glassy top end. Oh and the Maton was better finished, but I didn't really care so much about that. 

Two lovely guitars. I bought the Messiah, but I could easily have gone the other way.

In retrospect, I think I got it right. I play with my fingers, flesh or nail or both at once with three fingers, just the callus on my thumb for the bass notes. The famous Martin bass sound is great but it is dull and thuddy and flirts with being downright muddy. For most players, it's just a whisker this side of those things.With my thumb technique, I have to work to avoid flub and thud. (Not that I mind doing that. I'm bound to add a Martin to my little collection one of these days, probably an HD-28 but OM-28 and D-18 are certainly possibilities.)

As for volume, I don'rt care - except that at night, in order not to annoy Mrs Tannin, I never play the Guild or the Mineur (both very loud guitars) and go easy on the cedar dred and the Messiah (an 808 - same size and shape as a Martin OM only deeper, like a dred) 'cause they can be pretty loud too. Mostly I play the Cole Clark Angel at night. Or the baritone - it's quite loud but never shrill the way normal guitars can be.

Anyway, I know OM-28s and like them.. 

Tannin

Progress!




Top: King Billy Pine







Back and sides: Blackheart Sassafras

Soupman

@Tannin Oh man, that's going to be a corker! The dimensions look very similar to my Lowden O25, different woods of course.
A truly beautiful piece of work. I'm drooling, never mind you!
Hang in there!
 
 

Tannin

Cheers @Soupman pretty close. Little bit bigger, 450mm across the lower bout (just under 18 inches), but the overall proportions should be pretty close because the neck is longer too (as befits a baritone).

The funny thing is that while I'm looking forward to it, I'm not champing at the bit at all. It will be ready when it's ready. I think this must be because it's been more than two years since I ordered it and I've got used to knowing it's a long way off. Seeing it take physical shape "already" is a bit of a surprise!

Mellish

The reason you went for King Billy Pine?

Tannin

Cheers @Mellish, several reasons.

One is that it is said to sound very like cedar and I like cedar a lot.

A second is that this is an all-Tasmanian guitar (OK, Paul snuck a tiny bit of ebony onto the rosette, so 99.9% Tasmanian) and King Billy is the softest and lightest Tasmanian softwood - Huon Pine is stronger but heavier, and although technically a softwood is more akin to a light-middleweight timber like mahogany or Queensland Maple; Celery-top Pine ditto. In fact, Celery-top is hard enough to use for a neck, which is what we are doing.

And the third is that Paul just happened to have a bit of King Billy in his stock, and it just happened to be (barely!) wide enough for an oversize jumbo. I liked the look of it too. It will be a pretty top when it's finished.

Is it a wise choice for this particular instrument? Dunno, wait and see. I often think that cedar (and by extension King Billy) is best suited to smaller instruments which can be a bit over-crisp with stiffer tops, and less so with large guitars (which have more room to flex and therefore suit a stiffer wood such as spruce or even mahogany. But against that there are plenty of very good makers who make dreadnoughts and jumbos in cedar and there ain't too much wrong with Furch or Lowden. In the end, I guess it is up to the maker to judge how far to thin the particular top and how stiffly to brace it. Paul was happy to use  King Billy, so that was good enough for me. 

Anyway, when the guitar is completed, I'll have an example of every major Tasmanian tonewood: Huon Pine (Cole Clark Angel top); King Billy (baritone top); Celery-top (baritone neck); Blackwood (WA May back & sides, various necks); Myrtle Beech ("tiger myrtle") (back and sides of the concert guitar also made by Paul; baritone fretboard); and Southern Sassafras (aka "blackheart sassafras") (baritone back & sides).

So that just leaves my other little "complete the set" project. Counting the Brook I'm in the process of ordering, I'll have guitars from Australia, the USA, Japan, and the UK. I have it in mind over the next few years to order guitars from Germany (Stoll) and Sri Lanka (New Tone). That'll be six different countries, after that only 189 to go!

Mellish

Well, if you're not sure King Billy Pine. Is a good choice, take a risk and try it. I like you're thinking!

Can't wait to see it completed. 

 

Tannin

Bit of a change of plan. I popped in to see Paul on Friday. Our conversation went something like this:

"You know that bit of Celery-top I bought to make the neck out of?"

"Sure."

"Well as soon as I cut into it I thought 'That smells like Huon Pine!' and sure enough, that's what it is. I don't know whether I made the mistake or the timber merchant screwed up, but either way it's Huon Pine. Anyway, we can get a bit of Celery-top and try again or if you like we can use the Huon Pine".

"No worries", I said, Huon Pine will be fine."

"I was hoping you would say that!"

So he's made the neck blank up and will start the carve in due course. For the headstock we have decided to keep it simple, something broadly similar to this one (which is my Cole Clark Angel III) 



The headstock illustrated is Huon Pine flanked by Blackwood with an ebony fretboard. We will be using Huon Pine and Tiger Myrtle, with the fretboard also in Tiger Myrtle.

Huon Pine has become a bit of a visual theme as this guitar design has evolved: it is now going to be the neck, part of the headstock veneer, it already appears on the rosette and we decided to use it also for the body binding  and the strip (I forget what you call it) which goes along the seam where the sides join on the end of the body.

I'm a bit sad to not have any Celery-top now (it would have been nice to have completed the set) but perhaps that can be something for another day. 

As reminder (I'm sure I would have mentioned this earlier) Huon Pine is broadly similar to Honduran Mahogany so far as weight and hardness go. It is slightly lighter (95% of the density) and marginally harder (102%), so although Paul was doubtful of its suitability as a binding material - bindings are supposed to be hard so as to resist damage and protect the rest of the instrument - I reckon it out to do the job. There is a sensible argument to do what Cole Clark did with the instrument in the picture just above, use Rock Maple from Canada, which is quite a lot harder and of course much cheaper, but I'm happy with my choice. 

The  main alternative we considered was Drooping Sheoak, a hard, fairly dark brown timber native to most states in southern Australia (including Tasmania). That would make an ideal binding timber but on balance I decided that the tan-coloured King Billy top would look better with a light rather than a dark binding. 

What about the hardware? Paul will carve bone bridge and nut but we have not discussed tuners or bridge pins yet. 

thomasross20

This is an amazing thread. Though dangerous as find I'm getting more into the internals than playing (presently reading through this thread and googling different bracing patterns). Great stuff!!

Mellish

@Tannin ; mate, don't be sad over a lack of Celery. A good guitar is a wonderful thing. 
Love it for what it is, which I'm pretty sure you will.

 

Tannin

I asked Paul what the mystery bridge plate timber was and he couldn't remember but thought it was probably Celery-top. And we also decided to use Celery-top for the binding. I reckon we can call the set complete after all.

Oh, and I picked the tuners. Paul had a set of Gotoh 510s, gold, closed back, with black winders in his bottom drawer. I said they would do just fine.

Tannin

Well, they got the name of the day wrong.  Monday was supposed to be the King's Birthday public holiday but, having missed out on snagging a King's Birthday honour, Paul went into the shop and did some work on my guitar instead. So I reckon we should call Monday "Tannin's Birthday".

We have binding and a neck carve! 




King Billy Pine top, Celery-top Pine binding, Tiger Myrtle fretboard.




Huon Pine neck, Blackheart Sassafras back and sides.



It's going to look great once Paul puts a finish on it.