School me on Atkin

crunchman

slowth84 said:

Mellish said:

@slowth84 ; - you always *will* get a varied response mate bacause people are different.

It's true of *any* forum. 

I tried the Atkin Essential D and the D37. They weren't for me but may be right for you.

If on the other hand you want a Martin, you have a dealer in Singapore: City Music  

Ha thanks for the homework!

Im familiar with city music. Our small city state however doesn’t get the real goodies the big markets receive. Standard line, a modern deluxe here and there. 

Waterloo have had inflated prices the last years I believe. And none here as well. 

The Martin distributor in the UK seems to inflate the prices as well.  I haven't checked recently, but last time I checked (pre-Brexit) there were Martins widely available in Germany and Holland for around £1800 that were around £2100 here.

With Brexit making it more difficult and expensive to buy from the continent, I expect they have jacked the prices even more now.

Martins being so expensive here is one reason why Atkin makes sense in the UK.

slowth84

Saw the lengthy interview with andertons. 

Alistair said the bracing is European red wood? And that traditional guitars of old America were American redwood? 

Those were actually red spruce (Adirondack), so does that mean he uses European red spruce if there’s such a thing? 

Have hardly heard redwood being used for braces. 

Another thing, on the essential series, I thought I heard African mahogany, which is Khaya. Anyone can confirm what mahogany they actually use for their b/s/neck?
Khaya is also not traditional pre-war. 

Just stumps me how redwood bracing and African mahogany sounds prewar. 

MSedg

I’ve not seen the Andertons video - the other guy is a bit annoying tbh- but Atkin themselves have done a series of workshop videos showing their construction techniques, which is well worth a look. Or give them a call - they are crap at email but if you call you get Alistair on the phone straight away, in my experience.

On specifics, I’ve not heard of redwood being used for braces, as far as I know it’s spruce (can’t recall whether it’s Sitka or Adi) which is torrified - definitely covered in one of the vids. I don’t have a mahogany Atkin but I’ve not heard Khaya mentioned - I know they specifically use Honduran for some of their higher-end/custom stuff (like the 25th anniversary J43) but the rest I’ve just seen referred to as mahogany.

Tannin

Is there actually any practical real-world difference between Honduran Mahogany and Khaya that anyone could ever pick in a blind test? 

(Asking for a friend.)

MSedg

I mean, based on my playing of Atkins, no. I’ve played multiple essential dreads, OOOs, OMs, back to back with other brands. They all just sounded like mahogany to me! 

MSedg

(if, indeed, they are Khaya I mean)

slowth84

Tannin said:

Is there actually any practical real-world difference between Honduran Mahogany and Khaya that anyone could ever pick in a blind test? 

(Asking for a friend.)

I have played some Khaya locally. They’re a denser tonewood. Maybe slightly more crisp on the high end, not as warm. That’s me. 

Dave_Mc

Tannin said:

Is there actually any practical real-world difference between Honduran Mahogany and Khaya that anyone could ever pick in a blind test? 

(Asking for a friend.)

No idea, but like you I'd very much like to know. I know Khaya is usually considered to be the closest thing to genuine (Honduran, I guess also Cuban and Mexican but they're not really used) Mahogany without actually being allowed to be called "genuine mahogany". But it can be called "true mahogany" (I hate marketing).

My (very) unscientific tests of trying completely different guitars made of various different woods not even necessarily head-to-head tells me I still like acoustics made from Khaya (back and sides, I mean, I'm not sure I've tried any mahogany topped ones that weren't cheaper guitars just specced as being "mahogany" and, as such, could have been anything!), and that's not necessarily always been the case with guitars made with more distantly related woods which are still called "mahogany". But it could just have been that I didn't like the guitar as much, rather than the species of wood being the culprit. And also "still like" is not the same as "sounds the same", either...

EDIT: I haven't tried any Atkins...

Mellish

@Tannin ; - I've tried Honduran mahogany Martins and Khaya ones.

I can't tell a difference tone-wise and, if there *is* any, I doubt it will be much  

artiebear

slowth84 said:

Saw the lengthy interview with andertons. 

Alistair said the bracing is European red wood? And that traditional guitars of old America were American redwood? 

Those were actually red spruce (Adirondack), so does that mean he uses European red spruce if there’s such a thing? 

Have hardly heard redwood being used for braces. 

Another thing, on the essential series, I thought I heard African mahogany, which is Khaya. Anyone can confirm what mahogany they actually use for their b/s/neck?
Khaya is also not traditional pre-war. 

Just stumps me how redwood bracing and African mahogany sounds prewar. 

Adirondack is commonly known as Red Spruce, it doesn't grow anywhere in Europe. I have seen various European spruces, being either mistakenly or intentionally marketed as red spruce, even though a distinct species from Adirondack.

It is red spruce ( Adirondack ) that was commonly used for braces ( as well as tops ), not redwood which is very different.

slowth84

artiebear said:

slowth84 said:

Saw the lengthy interview with andertons. 

Alistair said the bracing is European red wood? And that traditional guitars of old America were American redwood? 

Those were actually red spruce (Adirondack), so does that mean he uses European red spruce if there’s such a thing? 

Have hardly heard redwood being used for braces. 

Another thing, on the essential series, I thought I heard African mahogany, which is Khaya. Anyone can confirm what mahogany they actually use for their b/s/neck?
Khaya is also not traditional pre-war. 

Just stumps me how redwood bracing and African mahogany sounds prewar. 

Adirondack is commonly known as Red Spruce, it doesn't grow anywhere in Europe. I have seen various European spruces, being either mistakenly or intentionally marketed as red spruce, even though a distinct species from Adirondack.

It is red spruce ( Adirondack ) that was commonly used for braces ( as well as tops ), not redwood which is very different.

That’s my understanding as well. So I’m surprised he said redwood

Tannin

European Redwood (Pinus sylvestris), also known as Scots Pine. Native to Europe and Eurasia, from Western Europe to Eastern Siberia, as far south as Turkey. Extensively planted for timber production in New Zealand and North America. Named for its red bark, Grows on poor soil in harsh conditions, in pure forests or mixed with European Spruce or any of several deciduous trees. 

(I just walk around with these details in my head.)

(Not.)

(G.I.Y.F.)

artiebear

Tannin said:

European Redwood (Pinus sylvestris), also known as Scots Pine. Native to Europe and Eurasia, from Western Europe to Eastern Siberia, as far south as Turkey. Extensively planted for timber production in New Zealand and North America. Named for its red bark, Grows on poor soil in harsh conditions, in pure forests or mixed with European Spruce or any of several deciduous trees. 

(I just walk around with these details in my head.)

(Not.)

(G.I.Y.F.)

And that’s where it gets confusing because Redwood is a different species being a sequoia. It is used by the likes of Lowden as an alternative to spruce and cedar, being marketed as a premium upgrade, unlike Scots pine, which while being ubiquitous in Europe is hardly ever considered as an alternative for acoustic instruments, 

Tannin

It sure does! The stupid names for timbers drive me effin' spare! I can feel a long rant about it coming on, so I better leave it at that. Well, OK, I'll mention Queensland Maple (a sort of lemon, more-or-less) and Tasmanian Oak (any of three completely different Eucalyptus species and absolutely nothing to do with any oak), or English Oak (grows all over Europe) or Norwegian Spruce (ditto), or .... excuse me, I'll just go and take my blood pressure pills now.

I come to guitar timbers from a background as a bit of a field naturalist with a specialty in birds. Now say what you like about birdwatchers, but one thing we do right is names. Every single bird species in the world has a single official formal common name, and that name is unique. For example, there used to be two different "Spur-winged Plover" species, one in Europe, one in Australia. So the relevant birding organisations got their heads together and renamed the Australian one "Masked Lapwing" ("lapwing" in another word for "large plover"). And the same for hundreds of other species. The mammal people are working on a similar project, though they have a way to go yet. And the plant people .... better not to ask.

Further, common names are always capitalised. "Black Rat" indicates a  particular exact species (Rattus rattus) and no other, where "black rat" indicates a rat (of any species) which happens to have a very dark colour. 

This is why I always capitalise "Queensland Maple" (a particular exact species) but not "mahogany" (any of at least three different ones); capitalise "Red Spruce" (the correct formal common name of Picea rubens)   but not "Adirondack spruce" (not its correct name).

Not that anyone ever notices.

Did I say I wasn't going to rant?

artiebear

@Tannin, great post ! Being a longtime amateur ornithologist, I get what your saying.

As far as wood naming goes, it does seem to be somewhat messy. I don't mind, and totally understand the confusion caused by using common names across different species on different continents, but what does bug me is when something is marketed with a touch obfuscation in mind. It happens in the hardwood furnishings world as much as in the guitar world.

slowth84

Wow can of worms I see. 

To try to bring it back to Atkin

whats with 2 different logo decals on the headstock?

Don’t fancy the yellow round one, and I see some with pearl script?

is the pearl and update on newer production? Cos their site still shows old logo in their gallery. 

I guess the “older” script did warm up to me a lil, abit of old world charm perhaps. 

MSedg

slowth84 said:

Wow can of worms I see. 

To try to bring it back to Atkin

whats with 2 different logo decals on the headstock?

Don’t fancy the yellow round one, and I see some with pearl script?

is the pearl and update on newer production? Cos their site still shows old logo in their gallery. 

I guess the “older” script did warm up to me a lil, abit of old world charm perhaps. 

Think I’m right in saying the pearl logo is a custom option on current models. Certainly I’ve only got it on one of mine (the OM37 custom) and have seen decals on nearly all stock in music stores. I believe they used to do it as a matter of course but no longer. FWIW the decal looks better in person in my view, it has a kind of shimmery thing going on when you turn it. Not for everyone though.

bertie

artiebear said:

bertie said:

Tannin said:

bertie said:

malcolmkindness said:

They tend to have very narrow necks and string spacing which doesn't suit me.

very narrow ? really ?     most are 43 / 44  which is pretty much "standard" 

43mm is narrow. 42mm is "very narrow". 44mm and 44.5mm are standard. I like 46mm much better but only the Europeans  seem to do that other than by custom order.

wrong

Why is that wrong ? @Tannin got that pretty much spot on for most  acoustic players 

- most modern makers 43 and 44 are the "norm" offered -   45 is considered wide and 42 ?  never seen it available 

MSedg

Tannin said:

European Redwood (Pinus sylvestris), also known as Scots Pine. 

Having gone back and watched the bracing video they put out (https://youtu.be/CUtTIwcYzqI) I think this must be the answer - it’s referred to in their own vid as  (baked) pine. So imagine the two names for this wood explains the confusion. I still have no answer to how using it for braces affects the tone, other than to say - I like it, whatever it is!