2 - 5 - 1 in phrygian dominant

Tannin

In the tradition of the triangular bicycle wheel ....

.... or possibly the circular firing squad......

I've been at it again. 

Mother said I'd go blind but I can't help myself. I keep messing around in F# phrygian dominant. Being based on harmonic minor, it has a fairly limited set of really usable chords if you stay diatonic. The main ones are F#7, Em7, and Gmaj7, but you can also make a Gm and of course a Bm(maj7) - it is after all a mode of B harmonic minor. Those aside you get two diminished chords and an augmented one. These need to be used with a little care if you want the result to be reasonably approachable to the average punter.

So what happens if I do something obvious, like a 2 - 5 - 1? First, what *is* a 2 - 5 - 1 in that mode? Is it even a relevant concept? I don't know. Let's just try a few things and see what happens.

The 2 is flat, so a straight diatonic "2 - 5 - 1" is Gmaj7 - Bm - F#. Or we can start with a Gm(maj7) or a straight G major or minor. For the 5 we can play Bm(maj7) and for the 1 we can play an F#7 if desired. All of these work, sort of, but none of them function anything much like a 2 - 5 - 1. 

We know that ordinary 2 - 5 - 1s work because (among other reasons) they are a two pairs of chords each a perfect 4th apart - but our G - B - F# sequence is not. No wonder it doesn't work! (BTW, I also tried playing a Bm7 which is out of key but quite pleasant.) 

OK, what if we play the *actual* 2 - 5 - 1 from the parent key? C# half-diminished - F#7 - Bm.  Surprise surprise, it works exactly like a proper 2 - 5 - 1 (because it is one!) and (equally unsurprising) dumps us straight into B minor. We didn't want to do that!  There is no escape: play those three chords in that order and you might as well tattoo "B minor" on your forehead. It's quite hard to get back. We want to stay in F# phrygian dominant, so scratch that one too.

Next I reasoned that intervals work both ways. In a normal 2-5-1 you start on the 2, go up a 4th to the 5, and go up another 4th to the root. Why can't we go backwards? If we start with Em, we can go *down* a 4th to Bm, and then down another 4th to end up on F#. And it works! 

It doesn't sound or function like a 2-5-1, but it works quite well in its own way, and leaves us very clearly in F#, which is where we want to be.  A variation is to use Em7 - the D note (m7th of E) repeats into the Bm (m3rd of and pulls strongly back to the C# of the F# chord. I like that.  This sequence is actually a 7 - 4 - 1, but this seems to be the phrygian dominant functional equivalent of a 2 - 5 - 1.

For completeness, what if we do the reverse - start in B minor and throw that same Em Bm F# sequence in? In that context it's a 4 - 1 - 5, and my ear says it can work either way: we can play it and stay in Bm, or use it as a bridge to F#. 

(Mother is tapping on my door and asking what I'm doing in there. I'll have to go now.)

viz

What I think of PhrygDom is that it’s very hard to force your brain into accepting it as the Tonic. It’s like looking at that pictue of takeaway trays, you can temporarily force your mind to see them as upside down, but your brain keeps flipping them the right way up again, as they truly are, especially if you look at the outer bowls. 

With PhrygDom your ear keeps wanting to resolve it up a 4th to its traditional home, in this case Bm; in other words it wants to treat it as a Dominant, hence its name and its original purpose in western classical music. 

But, of course we can do what we like in music, so if you want to force it to be a Tonic, then yes, what’s the closest to a functioning 251 you can make?

In the western musical keys system, with its arrangement of sharps and flats, as demonstrated by the C of 5ths and materialised through the construction of the piano, the position and distribution of the keys is brilliantly conceived such that all diatonic modes have a major 2nd and a perfect 5th, so that a proper 251 can be made for all of them - apart from the two darkest modes: Phrygian has a flat 2 major chord, and a diminished 5th: and Locrian has a flat 2nd and flat 5th. (Phrygian’s 251 is the genesis of the neapolitan 6th which is a very beautiful version of a 251).

Similarly to Phrgian, in PhrygDom you don’t have a major 2nd, the flat 2 chord is major, and the 5 chord is diminished, so first obvious choice would be b2-5(dim)-1. For F# PhrygDom that would be G - C#dim - F#. And because the C#dim is basically an inversion of Em, you may as well play G Em F#. 

Or even better, G Em6 F#, to get that C# note in. 

But however many times you do it, your ear is still hankering after that final resolution up to Bm!

Tannin

Great reply @viz - thank you!

carlos

viz already cleared it up, but my reaction was that it's too much tension to hold (b9 and the flat 5th interval between the 3 and 7 on that chord)

Tannin

And I like that E6!

viz

Em6 yeah?

(I mean, E6 you can play of course, but it’s not what I had in mind)

Tannin

Yes @carlos - and the other things with b2 5(dim) 1 is that it doesn't want to stop there. It wants to go on to resolve on the B and turn it into B minor. 

So a couple of rules-of-thumb

* Be careful using the 4 chord (Bm) because it wants to become a new tonic.
* Avoid going 5(dim) 1 because thyat wants to become a 251 in Bm.
* The 1, the b7, and the b2 (F#, em, G) are the safe chords. Take care when using other ones.

Tannin

Yes, Em6.

Cranky

Curious.  What makes the scale dominant?  F# Phrygian already has a flat 7, so what does the term “dominant” signify?

Tannin

If I remember correctly, it is because it has a major 3rd, allowing construction of a dominant chord on the tonic (F#7). I'd have thought that "Phrygian major" would be a more sensible name for it, and indeed that name is quite commonly used, but  there is a convincing argument to show that "Phrygian dominant" is a more sensible and rational name.

(Unfortunately, I have now forgotten what the reason was. I just remember reading it and thinking "Oh, OK, that makes sense. I'll remember to say "dominant Phrygian" or "Phrygian dominant" from now on." That was a few months ago. Don't remember where I read it. Ask me about this morning. I'm good on this morning.)

Cranky

Thanks.

Guess I could’ve just looked it up.  Good old Wikipedia.  Apparently the “dominant” refers to Phrygian being the fifth mode of the Harmonic Minor scale.  (F# being the fifth of B.). I forgot about the reorienting/reordering of things once we step out of the Major parent scale.

https://www.jazz-guitar-licks.com/pages/guitar-scales-modes/modes-of-the-harmonic-minor-scale/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_dominant_scale

viz

That’s always what dominant means. It’s about the special relationship that chord, well that note, has with the tonic. Each degree of the scale has a name: tonic, supertonic, mediant, subdominant, dominant, submediant, leading tone, and tonic, and they each have a meaning and a kind of purpose if I can put it like that. The dominant’s “purpose” is to provide a strong springboard off which to resolve to the tonic. 

The chord built off the dominant note is a dominant chord. It normally has a major 3rd and a minor 7th, but in weird modes that’s not always the case. 

Sometimes you can introduce a temporary, “secondary” dominant, somewhere else in the scale, and use it to cadence into a temporary tonic that isn’t the real tonic. Like in That’s Life, the second chord is a III7, cadencing to the vi. But that’s not the primary dominant. The primary dominant is always the V (or v). 

Cranky

viz said:

That’s always what dominant means. It’s about the special relationship that chord, well that note, has with the tonic. Each degree of the scale has a name: tonic, supertonic, mediant, subdominant, dominant, submediant, leading tone, and tonic, and they each have a meaning and a kind of purpose if I can put it like that. The dominant’s “purpose” is to provide a strong springboard off which to resolve to the tonic. 

The chord built off the dominant note is a dominant chord. It normally has a major 3rd and a minor 7th, but in weird modes that’s not always the case. 

Sometimes you can introduce a temporary, “secondary” dominant, somewhere else in the scale, and use it to cadence into a temporary tonic that isn’t the real tonic. Like in That’s Life, the second chord is a III7, cadencing to the vi. But that’s not the primary dominant. The primary dominant is always the V (or v). 

So with, say, Lydian Dominant, the word “dominant” in that case seems to signify “flat 7”, but really it does so as a nod to (the 5th) Mixolydian mode, not strictly because of the flat 7?

viz

Well sort-of. And I’ve always had a problem with that name. 

It’s because it’s lydian but with a minor 7th, so people call it Lydian Dominant. It should be called lydian minor 7th, or Lydian flat 7. 

But because the normal dominant chord - based on mixolydian, as you rightly say, has a minor 7th, and is the only major diatonic chord with a minor 7th, the word dominant has become synonymous with that minor 7th. So the term “dominant 7th” has arisen, and now people think that the word dominant refers to that minor 7th interval, whereas it’s actually trying to say “dominant chord, because it’s chord V, and because it happens to have a flat 7, we call it a dominant 7 chord”. 

And then people have refered to any old minor 7th interval as a dominant 7th. 

But the chord Lydian Dominant actually has nothing to do with Dominant. 

Gassage

The only song I know that I THINK is 2-5-1 Phy Dom is YYZ by Rush and even then, only the solo?

Am I correct that it is?

Tannin

viz said:

But because the normal dominant chord - based on mixolydian, as you rightly say, has a minor 7th, and is the only major diatonic chord with a minor 7th, the word dominant has become synonymous with that minor 7th. So the term “dominant 7th” has arisen, and now people think that the word dominant refers to that minor 7th interval, whereas it’s actually trying to say “dominant chord, because it’s chord V, and because it happens to have a flat 7, we call it a dominant 7 chord”. 

And then people have refered to any old minor 7th interval as a dominant 7th. 

I do this myself, and there is a very good reason for that. Not a theoretically correct reason, I hasten to add, simply a practical reason. When talking to other musicians, one needs to communicate clearly. Suppose we are in E. I want Jones to play an A7 (no, not the  diatonic A major 7, I want the flat 7). If I use the word "minor" anywhere in what I say, Jones will play Am7. If I put the word "major" anywhere, Jones will probably play an A major 7. If I say "flat 7" there is always the risk that Jones will flatten the flat 7. But if I say "A dominant 7" Jones plays the right chord every time.

Anyway, that's my habit. I should probably try saying "flat 7" and see if that works OK. 

viz

^ yeah and tbh I do too hahaha  

(Also because a flat 7 chord is a name that some people ascribe to the chord off the flattened 7 - eg in E major (or E mixolydian), the D chord. So, yup, everyone colludes in the erroneous dominant 7 chord naming

viz

Gassage said:

The only song I know that I THINK is 2-5-1 Phy Dom is YYZ by Rush and even then, only the solo?

Am I correct that it is?

Yes! Well, that and every single Yngwie Malmsteen song.

I didn't know XYZ, the sound is amazing. Cheers!

Brad

viz said: 

But the chord Lydian Dominant actually has nothing to do with Dominant. 

Then what is it? I'd be interested to know what you make of say, Dm7 - G7#11 - Cmaj7?

 @Cranky - harmonise the C major scale and then harmonise C melodic minor scale in thirds. Notice anything as more 3rds get stacked on top of each other? 

Gassage

viz said:

Gassage said:

The only song I know that I THINK is 2-5-1 Phy Dom is YYZ by Rush and even then, only the solo?

Am I correct that it is?

Yes! Well, that and every single Yngwie Malmsteen song.

I didn't know XYZ, the sound is amazing. Cheers!

This is an AMAZING live performance- crowd loving it!

viz

ah, ok yes, if you force it to be a dominant chord, then yep it can be; but taking that to its absurd limit, you could call a chord based on Dorian a dominant chord, in the (rather shit) progression Dm7 - Gm6 - Cmaj7.

Lydian Dominant doesn't normally act as a dominant. As far as I know. I most often encounter it as the tonic (eg The Simpsons), or as the 4 chord in melodic minor. But yep, ok in your example it's a dominant. But I still assume it's called Lydian Dominant because it's Lydian with a flat 7th.