2 - 5 - 1 in phrygian dominant

viz

Gassage said:

viz said:

Gassage said:

The only song I know that I THINK is 2-5-1 Phy Dom is YYZ by Rush and even then, only the solo?

Am I correct that it is?

Yes! Well, that and every single Yngwie Malmsteen song.

I didn't know XYZ, the sound is amazing. Cheers!

This is an AMAZING live performance- crowd loving it!

Awesome. And I've just remembered, I do know that song! I've got that Rio DVD for example!

Tannin

Well that was two minutes I won't get back again.

viz

Maybe don't watch it at 2x, it's honestly better in the original speed.

Tannin

Oh, I watched it at the original speed, skipping forward whenever it got too tedious (which was essentially all the time). Less than two minutes, actually. Presumably it is very challenging to play and a great technical achievement. It's not something I would listen to again if I didn't have to. Still, at least it wasn't hip-hop.

Brad

viz said:

ah, ok yes, if you force it to be a dominant chord, then yep it can be; but taking that to its absurd limit, you could call a chord based on Dorian a dominant chord, in the (rather shit) progression Dm7 - Gm6 - Cmaj7.

Lydian Dominant doesn't normally act as a dominant. As far as I know. I most often encounter it as the tonic (eg The Simpsons), or as the 4 chord in melodic minor. But yep, ok in your example it's a dominant. But I still assume it's called Lydian Dominant because it's Lydian with a flat 7th.

 I think I get your perspective now, you’re saying it generally isn’t used as a V chord (dominant position) in functional harmony? Rather than the actual chord quality itself not being dominant? 

Cranky

Brad said:

viz said: 

But the chord Lydian Dominant actually has nothing to do with Dominant. 

Then what is it? I'd be interested to know what you make of say, Dm7 - G7#11 - Cmaj7?

 @Cranky - harmonise the C major scale and then harmonise C melodic minor scale in thirds. Notice anything as more 3rds get stacked on top of each other? 

I really want to do this, but unless by “harmonize the scale” you simply mean to play the scale, I’m afraid I don’t know what to do here.

digitalkettle

Cranky said:

Brad said:

viz said: 

But the chord Lydian Dominant actually has nothing to do with Dominant. 

Then what is it? I'd be interested to know what you make of say, Dm7 - G7#11 - Cmaj7?

 @Cranky - harmonise the C major scale and then harmonise C melodic minor scale in thirds. Notice anything as more 3rds get stacked on top of each other? 

I really want to do this, but unless by “harmonize the scale” you simply mean to play the scale, I’m afraid I don’t know what to do here.

Stacking 3rds from a given scale is a way of building up diatonic chords.

C melodic minor: C D Eb F G A B

Stacking 3rds on the C - C Eb G B etc (so far this is a Cm(maj7) chord)
Stacking 3rds on the D - D F A C etc (so far this is a Dm7 chord)
...and so on...

viz

Brad said:

viz said:

ah, ok yes, if you force it to be a dominant chord, then yep it can be; but taking that to its absurd limit, you could call a chord based on Dorian a dominant chord, in the (rather shit) progression Dm7 - Gm6 - Cmaj7.

Lydian Dominant doesn't normally act as a dominant. As far as I know. I most often encounter it as the tonic (eg The Simpsons), or as the 4 chord in melodic minor. But yep, ok in your example it's a dominant. But I still assume it's called Lydian Dominant because it's Lydian with a flat 7th.

 I think I get your perspective now, you’re saying it generally isn’t used as a V chord (dominant position) in functional harmony? Rather than the actual chord quality itself not being dominant? 

Yep. Because for me, Dominant means V. (Or secondary V)

Brad

viz said:

Brad said:

viz said:

ah, ok yes, if you force it to be a dominant chord, then yep it can be; but taking that to its absurd limit, you could call a chord based on Dorian a dominant chord, in the (rather shit) progression Dm7 - Gm6 - Cmaj7.

Lydian Dominant doesn't normally act as a dominant. As far as I know. I most often encounter it as the tonic (eg The Simpsons), or as the 4 chord in melodic minor. But yep, ok in your example it's a dominant. But I still assume it's called Lydian Dominant because it's Lydian with a flat 7th.

 I think I get your perspective now, you’re saying it generally isn’t used as a V chord (dominant position) in functional harmony? Rather than the actual chord quality itself not being dominant? 

Yep. Because for me, Dominant means V. (Or secondary V)

I guess that’s where my confusion is creeping in with regards to what you are saying. 

Can a Lydian Dominant not act as a secondary dominant? 

Brad

@Cranky my apologies, as you queried ‘Lydian Dominant’ I made an assumption on where you might be regarding theory etc. @digitalkettle nicely explained the concept but unfortunately for us, there can be many ways of getting to the same answer…

viz

Brad said:

viz said:

Brad said:

viz said:

ah, ok yes, if you force it to be a dominant chord, then yep it can be; but taking that to its absurd limit, you could call a chord based on Dorian a dominant chord, in the (rather shit) progression Dm7 - Gm6 - Cmaj7.

Lydian Dominant doesn't normally act as a dominant. As far as I know. I most often encounter it as the tonic (eg The Simpsons), or as the 4 chord in melodic minor. But yep, ok in your example it's a dominant. But I still assume it's called Lydian Dominant because it's Lydian with a flat 7th.

 I think I get your perspective now, you’re saying it generally isn’t used as a V chord (dominant position) in functional harmony? Rather than the actual chord quality itself not being dominant? 

Yep. Because for me, Dominant means V. (Or secondary V)

I guess that’s where my confusion is creeping in with regards to what you are saying. 

Can a Lydian Dominant not act as a secondary dominant? 

Well yes, it CAN be, as per your own example, because it can resolve up a 4th, but I’m pretty sure it’s called Lydian dominant because if has a Lydian 4th (raied) and a flat 7th. Not because it’s the 5th mode of something, in the same way that phrygian dominant is. 

Brad

viz said:

Brad said:

viz said:

Brad said:

viz said:

ah, ok yes, if you force it to be a dominant chord, then yep it can be; but taking that to its absurd limit, you could call a chord based on Dorian a dominant chord, in the (rather shit) progression Dm7 - Gm6 - Cmaj7.

Lydian Dominant doesn't normally act as a dominant. As far as I know. I most often encounter it as the tonic (eg The Simpsons), or as the 4 chord in melodic minor. But yep, ok in your example it's a dominant. But I still assume it's called Lydian Dominant because it's Lydian with a flat 7th.

 I think I get your perspective now, you’re saying it generally isn’t used as a V chord (dominant position) in functional harmony? Rather than the actual chord quality itself not being dominant? 

Yep. Because for me, Dominant means V. (Or secondary V)

I guess that’s where my confusion is creeping in with regards to what you are saying. 

Can a Lydian Dominant not act as a secondary dominant? 

Well yes, it CAN be, as per your own example, because it can resolve up a 4th, but I’m pretty sure it’s called Lydian dominant because if has a Lydian 4th (raied) and a flat 7th. Not because it’s the 5th mode of something, in the same way that phrygian dominant is. 

Don’t get me wrong, we’re in agreement about why it’s called Lydian Dominant and where it’s derived from  

It was the assertion that the “Lydian dominant chord has nothing to do with dominant” which threw me. Now I have a clearer picture of your position, I can see where you’re coming from because as you say, it’s NOT a mode derived from the 5th note of a parent scale. However I don’t think it’s that clear cut…

My point, is that a Lydian Dominant chord IS still a type of Dominant chord and can be used as such. It’s a particular flavour to add to the palette for when 7th chords occur, whether it’s V-I or a secondary dominant. 

Cranky

@Brad all good, I understand what the words mean but, being mainly self-taught and light on the lingo, I’ll often need clarification on instructions.

Brad

Cranky said:

@Brad all good, I understand what the words mean but, being mainly self-taught and light on the lingo, I’ll often need clarification on instructions.

Got ya. It can all get a little overwhelming, particularly the melodic minor stuff, but it’s rewarding when even the smallest pieces of the puzzle fall into place.  

viz

Brad said:

My point, is that a Lydian Dominant chord IS still a type of Dominant chord and can be used as such. It’s a particular flavour to add to the palette for when 7th chords occur, whether it’s V-I or a secondary dominant. 

Yup and I totes concede that. Just like Super locrian is too (though interestingly that’s not called super locrian dominant or something) - and neither of which scales actually contains the perfect 4th up to which to resolve. But both of which are fine to use in a V context. So yup. 

Brad

viz said:

Just like Super locrian is too (though interestingly that’s not called super locrian dominant or something) 

Well, I have come across Altered Dominant quite often… which probably came from the same naming ceremony as Lydian Dominant and Phrygian Dominant  

viz said:

- and neither of which scales actually contains the perfect 4th up to which to resolve. But both of which are fine to use in a V context.  

   
Perhaps I’m missing something but I’m not sure I follow this. Both scales (and respective chords) have the 3 and b7 needed to resolve. Don’t know where not having perfect 4th fits in here? 

viz

Brad said:

Perhaps I’m missing something but I’m not sure I follow this. Both scales (and respective chords) have the 3 and b7 needed to resolve. Don’t know where not having perfect 4th fits in here? 

The perfect 4th is the interval they’re resolving up to in the 251. The 5 to the 1 is a perfect 4th, yet neither scale we’re talking about actually has that note in the scale, so, like, according to western music, if you were staying strict to the mode, you couldn’t resolve up a 4th, you’d be resolving up an augmented 4th. Which isn't what you're trying to do. That's why, like you never resolve from the 4th degree up to the major 7th (Lydian to Locrian). I mean, not having the 4th in the scale is fine in jazz, obviously, you just ignore that and do it anyway, it sounds juicy and cool. But I’m just saying, when these conventions and names were invented, they reinforced certain norms that were in music. They were invented and named exactly to do that. Jazz breaks those conventions and says “even though this V chord doesn’t have a perfect 4th in it, you can still resolve up a perfect 4th. You don’t have to stay diatonic. Relax!”

viz

Brad said:

viz said:

Just like Super locrian is too (though interestingly that’s not called super locrian dominant or something) 

Well, I have come across Altered Dominant quite often… which probably came from the same naming ceremony as Lydian Dominant and Phrygian Dominant  

 

Well you know what, actually on that one I'm not so sure - because a) the altered scale is almost always used in dominant position, as an alternative to a normal V chord; and b) because the word "altered" already deals with every note in the scale, because it's a major scale with every note altered downwards by one semitone (apart from the 1 and the 8 of course), so using the word dominant to refer to its 7th doesn't seem logical.

So I reckon that's like phrygian dominant - the word dominant refers to its role, not its 7th note. Whereas Lydian dominant refers to its 7th note. 

But thats only a guess.

Brad

@viz, right you’re talking being strictly diatonic. 

viz said:

Brad said:

viz said:

Just like Super locrian is too (though interestingly that’s not called super locrian dominant or something) 

Well, I have come across Altered Dominant quite often… which probably came from the same naming ceremony as Lydian Dominant and Phrygian Dominant  

 

Well you know what, actually on that one I'm not so sure - because a) the altered scale is almost always used in dominant position, as an alternative to a normal V chord; and b) because the word "altered" already deals with every note in the scale, because it's a major scale with every note altered downwards by one semitone (apart from the 1 and the 8 of course), so using the word dominant to refer to its 7th doesn't seem logical.

So I reckon that's like phrygian dominant - the word dominant refers to its role, not its 7th note. Whereas Lydian dominant refers to its 7th note. 

But thats only a guess.

Indeed it is. However, strictly speaking the Altered Scale is built off the 7th note of melodic minor, a m7b5 chord, hence the name Super Locrian. So on the face of it, perhaps we could argue it has as much to do with V compared with Lydian Dom? Where as we know, Phrygian Dominant is a true V. But obviously we know it’s not that straight forward…

For what it’s worth, my view is they are colloquialisms from American musicians, specifically jazz players from the bebop era where the role of a V7 is a lot more fluid due to the changes constantly moving. 

As we know, these three scale choices can all be used over Dom7 chords, be it as functioning and secondary (choice depends on context of course) or static vamps. Who knows? I don’t